Final answer to PST exemption questions

[JeffG]

oxyhacker: 2 FUDers: 0

(FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt)

 

[lamont]

jeff, your avatar is priceless... that's up there with the cat...

(that's generally the expression i'm wearing when i'm reading forums on the internet...)

 

[wmspdi]

If the main issue is "can the NEW PST Cylinder LLC apply for extensions of the OLD Pressed Steel exemptions" then the following link to a US DOT web site may shed some light on the subject.

http://hazmat.dot.gov/sp_app/special_permits/docs/08000/SP08965.pdf

As you can see from reading the filing, DOT has already granted a special permit exemption to PST Cylinder LLC for "fiber" tanks originally produced by Pressed Steel (so much for the "same company" argument). I believe this also sets a precedent for the transfer of the E7 series exemptions from the old Pressed Steel to the new PST Cylinder LLC. I'll dig a little deeper and see if a filling has been received for the E series of tanks as well. As an owner of 4 E7-100s I have a financial interest as well.

 

[oxyhacker]

My gawd! They've broken their own rules! If they'll do that, you can't believe anything they tell you!

Better sell those tanks!

If the main issue is "can the NEW PST Cylinder LLC apply for extensions of the OLD Pressed Steel exemptions" then the following link to a US DOT web site may shed some light on the subject.

http://hazmat.dot.gov/sp_app/special_permits/docs/08000/SP08965.pdf

 

[wmspdi]

My gawd! They've broken their own rules! If they'll do that, you can't believe anything they tell you!

Since when have you been able to believe what the government has told you!!!

With government agencies, little loop holes like "variance", "special permit", "exemption" and "exception" are ways of getting around their own rules. The E-9791-M exemption is in it's self a way to break their own rules on tank specifications.

Remember, most of our law makers are lawyers. I have spent most of my adult life dealing with either the FCC or the FAA, and one thing I have learned is the feds always leave themselves a way out!

As of this point no other US DOT filings from PST Cylinders LLC have been POSTED (as public notices). That's not to say that applications may not be in the process.

I'm not ready to sell my PST E7 tanks... yet.

JEFFG... what's the score now?

 

[oxyhacker]

I was being sarcastic, but I assume you know that. Phil in his last posts seemed to be backing away from his earlier certainty, and getting ready to blame the government for the misinformation he had been spreading rather rather than just admitting that his information had been wrong all along.

The government is always a handy scapegoat, but in this case it is quite unfair - I have always found the DOT SP people to be very easy to deal with, straightforward and consistent in what they tell me.

The SP process is indeed a way for the DOT to break it's own rules - that's the whole point of it, to allow innovation but keep an eye on the results to be sure the tanks are holding up in the real world. So its a good thing, though some of its ramifications, expired exemptions expecially, can be irritating. I sure wouldn't sell my PST tanks - there is no reason that they will not be able to remain in service for many more years now, regardless of the fate of the current incarnation of PST. It's interesting to note that the one company that HAS orphaned a lot of scuba tanks over the years, did it not because they were in trouble, but just because they didn't give a damn.

Since when have you been able to believe what the government has told you!!!

With government agencies, little loop holes like "variance", "special permit", "exemption" and "exception" are ways of getting around their own rules. The E-9791-M exemption is in it's self a way to break their own rules on tank specifications.

Remember, most of our law makers are lawyers. I have spent most of my adult life dealing with either the FCC or the FAA, and one thing I have learned is the feds always leave themselves a way out!

As of this point no other US DOT filings from PST Cylinders LLC have been POSTED (as public notices). That's not to say that applications may not be in the process.

I'm not ready to sell my PST E7 tanks... yet.

JEFFG... what's the score now?

 

[wmspdi]

I had noted the slightly sarcastic tone. I posted the link above to provide the documentation some SBers reqested regarding PST's ability to assume Pressed Steel's exemptions. I am actually thinking about picking up a used E7 120.

 

[PhilEllis]

(snip)........Especially when one gives, as I did, a phone number so anyone who isn't willing to take my word for what the DOT told me can call the DOT and verify the accuracy of my statements for him or herself. Which I must say, none of the naysayers on this issue seem very interested in doing.

Vance, I don't consider myself a "naysayer" on this issue. Further, I don't consider myself one of the "FUDers" as the score keepers seem to imply. I don't view this issue as an issue that has "sides". Actually, let me correct that..........there are two sides.

Side 1. There are ALL of us divers (I am one of them...I have two dozen of the E-9791 cylinders currently in service) who have purchased the very high quality products previously made by Pressed Steel Cylinders, under the assumption that the company would be good stewards of the necessary Special Permits that would allow us to use our products, legally, throughout the entire natural life of the product. We dont need to keep score...the optimists vs the FUDers....it's just one team; consumers who purchased cylinders, INCLUDING ME, expecting them to have a life as long as they continue to pass the necessary inspections.

Side 2. The Pressed Steel Cylinder company. Granted, they had a wonderful product, but their company was PLAGUED with the most massive of financial problems, self imposed, that could be imagined. However, we have to consider their PAST PERFORMANCE as a company to get an idea of what the new company, made entirely from the same old operators, might do. As a Pressed Steel Dealer, I can't remember EVEN ONE promise they ever kept. For nearly three years, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THEY HAD NO PRODUCT TO DELIVER, they made promises to dealers, they manned the booths at DEMA, they put out the message that all is well....hell, they have even apparently promised some stores that some new shipments of cylinders are coming in October! They don't have a factory, they can't use any of the materials produced in the old factory to make cylinders in "new" factory (the exemption forbids that), and from all evidence, they have no financial (at least not any apparent) backing beyond the initial purchase of the assets of the old company and the costs of forming the new entity. If there is financial backing, it appears that it is foreign and any manufacturing is likely to be foreign.

I think it is instructive to look at the June 27, 2006 issue of SP-8965 that was mentioned by a previous poster. This applicaton was submitted by the old company on January 30, 2006. This date is AFTER they knew that THEY WOULD NEVER PRODUCE ANOTHER CYLINDER AS PRESSED STEEL CYLINDERS! They were bankrupt with NO HOPES of salvaging the situation. There has NEVER been (to my knowledge) a cylinder produced under this Special Permit (there could possibly be another exemption for the same product that I was unable to find), there has NEVER been an inspection of a manufacturing facility under this permit, there are no USERS of cylinders produced under this Special Permit that might have "Party Status". This permit involves NOTHING MORE than the work of some attorneys. I can fully see how a new company (PST Cylinders, LLC) was allowed to step in and instantly be granted "Party Status" for this application.....other than paperwork, nothing had been done! This is considerably different from obtaining status on an exemption (like E-9791) where facility inspections have been completed, a specific manufacturing process has been approved, a quality control process has been verified, and a manufacturing and distribution process has been observed.

Now, the application process that resulted in the issue of the previously discussed SP-8965 exemption (for the fibre wound cylinders...not for scuba use) was not done by the engineers. This is the work of attorneys. There is a TON of legal work that goes into applying for and receiving a DOT Special Permit. Apparently, the new company has (and has had) some lawyers, hard at work, at least since June 26, 2006, working on either applying for, or obtaining party status for, special permits from the Department of Transportation on behalf of PST Cylinders, LLC. Unless filed in the last week, I can find NO evidence that they are doing comparable work, or expending comparable effort, on behalf of ANY OTHER EXEMPTION previously inprocess or previously approved on behalf of the old company, including the E-9791 special permit that is of interest to us. Hey, they had the lawyers. If the process of renewing the special permit is so easy, why didn't they just piggy-back that simple work while they had the lawyers working with the DOT? This begs ONLY one question..........Why did they work so hard to obtain an exemption for a product that NO USER CURRENTS OWNS, all the while seemingly doing NOTHING on an exemption to cover a product that is 1) about to expire, 2) and which effects THOUSANDS of current owners and users? I don't know the answer, but like everyone else, I can use my imagination, previous business experience, knowledge of past operations, and simply common sense to make some rather educated guesses........

Maybe they KNOW they will not be able to obtain party status to E-9791, the PRIMARY step in beginning the process of qualifying for an exemption previously issued, making such effort economically foolish. Maybe they KNOW they will never again produce that particular product, making any effort to obtain party status economically foolish. Maybe they simply don't care!

Our industry is full of examples of players that have screwed scuba divers as principals of one company, only to form another company and get absolute forgiveness. The way the population of CURRENT DIVERS drifts in and out of our sport, that is easy to do. The only problem is, those of us that are in this for the long run, and that are not part of that ever changing population, also have a pretty strong history of forgiving past SERIOUS transgressions against divers, all hoping that it will happen better in the future. Maybe if I was hoping to make and market scuba cylinders, I would WANT all of the old cylinders to expire. After all, you will forgive me and I will probably get an opportunity to just sell you some more cylinders.

There is one final issue. All of us that participate on this chat board, and others, have to take everything said with a grain of salt. But we have to work on the assumption that those who write extensively about a subject have some knowledge about the subject. To assume anything to the contrary would make chat boards useless. I absolutely believe that you have knowledge. You should also assume that I do. It would be silly of you, me, or anyone else to assume that I haven't dialed the phone number you gave and personally spoken to Diane LaValle about this EXACT issue.....especially since I intended to speak on this subject and have a strong vested interest, as a user, consumer, and dealer, in the subject. Like you, i'm not foolish. You cannot go TOTALLY on what you are told in such a phone call. In fact, during my extensive telephone conversations (many of them over the past four months), I have been led to believe a truth that is EXACTLY OPPOSITE from the truth you believe. And we both got our information FROM THE SAME SOURCE! So, we have to also factor in other sources of information, other knowledge of how the process has worked for others, and other data to support or not support, what we are told in telephone conversations.

I gather that many believe that IF PST drops the ball and does not get Party Status to the E-9791 exemption, it is simple to get a "Use Exemption" as a user. That is PLAINLY not true. That process is complicated, time consuming, done only on behalf of a SINGLE user, and not worth the time and expense of any individual user. The only hope is if PST is successful in having a desire to assume the exemption, is successful in obtaining party status, and follow through with the effort necessary to settle this issue, once and for all.

Again, I HOPE I AM WRONG. I don't want to lose the use of my two dozen cylinders. I don't want my customers to lose the use of countless numbers of the cylinders. However, I will not "whistle in the grave yard" hoping the hard becomes easy and hoping the unlikely becomes likely. If PST Cylinders LLC does not remedy this situation, we should, collectively, NEVER PURCHASE ANOTHER PRODUCT FROM THEM, no matter how good the product is. We should all do our part in washing them from the industry.

Anyway, just my opinion.

Phil Ellis

 

[roakey]

SparticleBrane, you want me to change the title of this thread to "Just another one of the many, and the many, many more to come answers to the PST exemption"?

Roak

 

[PhilEllis]

Phil in his last posts seemed to be backing away from his earlier certainty, and getting ready to blame the government for the misinformation he had been spreading( my added emphasis) rather rather than just admitting that his information had been wrong all along.

Wow, I didn't see this while I was writing my earlier post. How silly of you to make this statement. It's a rather stupid remark from a rather smart guy. Go back and read! I haven't backed away from anything. I did say, over and over, that I hope I am wrong. It serves my best interests to be wrong. Are you the ONLY person with information? Must everyone else be spewing misinformation if they don't agree with you? Give me a break!

Phil Ellis