OK, I will take a stab at this. Please understand that I am not targeting any person in my comments, I have no ill will against Pressed Steel (the old company), nor do I have any vested interest in doing damage to PST Cylinders LLC (the supposedly new company). Actually, quite the opposite. As a past Pressed Steel dealer and a retailer who made some money selling those cylinders, I would LOVE for all of the old cylinders to suddenly REAPPEAR so I can make some more money on them... But, here is the situation as I understand it, unsupported by any proof and credible evidence.......
In so much as they might apply to scuba diving cylinders, there are only TWO types of cylinder exemptions issued by the United States Department of Transportation for the manufacture, sale, and distribution of cylinders......"Manufacturer Mark and Sell" special permits and "Use Exemption" special permits.
Under a "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" special permit, a PARTICULAR manufacturer applies for a PARTICULAR exemption of a product or series of products. Once the special permit is issued, that permit covers only a PARTICULAR manufacturing facility, operated by a PARTICLAR company, using a PARTICULAR manufacturing method, with a UNIQUE DOT REN number, stamped on a PARTICULAR product covered by that special permit. If that company goes out of business, or if that manufacturing facility is turned into a shopping center, or if that manufacturing process is dismantled, or if that REN number is revoked or abandoned, then that product can no longer be made under the "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" permit and when that permit expires, cylinders marked with that special permit number and that REN symbol ARE ILLEGAL to use in commerce. That means that those cylinder could not be filled in commerce, used legally in a stationary setting, or transported on the highways. ONLY THE ORIGINAL COMPANY may apply for a renewal of a "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" permit. To apply, of course, that original company must still exist! Now, there is a provision for extending the permit if a NEW company TAKES OVER the old company.....but it must use the PARTICULAR manufacturing facility, the PARTICULAR manufacturing process, must manufacturer the PARTICULAR product or products covered by the special permit, and must stamp all cylinders with the PARTICULAR REN symbol issued to the original company. In other words, it must be the SAME company as the original company, but under new ownership. The new company must meet all of the requirements necessary to obtain "Party Status" to the original exemption. As I understand it, a new company operating under a similar name, with some principals from the original company, in a different manufacturing facility, using a different manufacturing process, doesn't meet the requirements. In this case, as a minimum, the new entity would have a new REN symbol issued, making the original "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" permit invalid.
In the event of the expiration of a "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" DOT special permit, AN INDIVIDUAL USER may apply for "Party Status" and for a conversion of a "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" permit to a "Use Exemption". This "Use Exemption" is issued to a PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY. This application is a little more than a simple "administrative" issue. The individual user must provide data, sufficient in complexity to satisfy the Department of Transportation, that the continued use of the pressure vessel would present no danger to the user, his or her agents, and the public and that failure to obtain the "Use Exemption" would create a "hardship" to the user. THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THIS TYPE OF EXEMPTION and the entire purpose of this special permit conversion process is to allow an entity who has a substantial investment in a pressure vessel (maybe a large factory that bought a number of relatively expensive vessels) to continue to use the vessel after the manufacturer has gone out of business or has abandoned the exemption. It is important to note that a "Use Exemption" is issued to a PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY that has applied for and received "PARTY STATUS". If successful, that PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY would be issued ANOTHER special permit which allows the use of a PARTICULAR vessel. In the case of the scuba cylinders we are discussing, unless the process (as I understand it) is altered by the Department of Transportation, EVERY USER of an E-9791 cylinder would need to apply for a "Use Exemption" special permit FOR THAT CYLINDER. Unless the process is changed by the Department of Transportation, no individual or entity may apply for a "Use Exemption" special permit on behalf of a group or class of users. EACH USER must obtain a "Use Exemption" for their cylinder or cylinders.
I hope someone will be successful in obtaining PARTY STATUS for the E-9791 special permit and would then be able to renew the "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" special permit, giving comfort and cover to the thousands of cylinder owners. I understand why some new company would hope to claim that some more PST cylinders are "just over the horizon". After all, they are trying to fly a phoenix out of the ashes. They are trying to maintain some measure of their old market share. However, I think they have a pretty high hurdle to cross. They don't have a manufacturing facility, have not published an immediate plan for one, and are missing almost everything necessary to call themselves a manufacturing company. Should someone be successful in putting all of this together, meeting the requirements necessary for them to claim "Party Status" on this particular special permit will still be difficult and time consuming. IT IS CLEAR that the concept of EACH Pressed Steel cylinder user obtaining "Party Status" and applying for a "Use Exemption" for their personal cylinders, and having that exemption actually issued, is unworkable. The time, cost, and burden of doing that simply doesn't make sense for a scuba cylinder. It would make more sense to simply trash them and get new ones from an ongoing concern.
I realize that you can make a phone call and have someone at the DOT say "Sure, you just need to apply for a Use Exemption special permit. It's easy. It happens every day". The government and it's employees have a magic way of making the extremely difficult seam easy and the impossible sound feasible. That is how a bureaucracy works. I further realize that I have not quoted any "sources" with this post, nor have I pointed to any "substantial proof" of what I say. I am going on an accumulated body of knowledge of the subject, from a variety of sources. Some of my recollections of how the DOT process works could well be wrong. My knowledge of the subject is the result of casual learning, not a detailed and studied examination of the subject. As I accumulated this knowledge, I never imagined that I would be required to present any credible evidence of the truth of my understanding. Failure to support my comments without sources doesn't necessarily make me wrong. After all, we are just talking here....not presenting a case in court. I expect that my failure to quote specific sources for my information does allow many of us to continue to "whistle through the graveyard", pleasantly oblivous to the impending doom to come with regard to this particular product. Unfortunately, our best proof of what is and what is not possible on this issue will come when the permit expires, nobody steps forward with "Party Status" to renew the "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" exemption, and individuals start the process of gaining "Party Status" and applying for a "Use Exemption" for their personal cylinders. If some new company actually qualifies to continue to manufacture under the E-9791 exemption, thereby providing "grandfather" status for all of the existing cylinders, we will then know once and for all, that it is possible. Until then, we will just continue to imagine what might happen.
Anyway, like everything I post on this board.....just my opinion.
Phil Ellis
In so much as they might apply to scuba diving cylinders, there are only TWO types of cylinder exemptions issued by the United States Department of Transportation for the manufacture, sale, and distribution of cylinders......"Manufacturer Mark and Sell" special permits and "Use Exemption" special permits.
Under a "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" special permit, a PARTICULAR manufacturer applies for a PARTICULAR exemption of a product or series of products. Once the special permit is issued, that permit covers only a PARTICULAR manufacturing facility, operated by a PARTICLAR company, using a PARTICULAR manufacturing method, with a UNIQUE DOT REN number, stamped on a PARTICULAR product covered by that special permit. If that company goes out of business, or if that manufacturing facility is turned into a shopping center, or if that manufacturing process is dismantled, or if that REN number is revoked or abandoned, then that product can no longer be made under the "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" permit and when that permit expires, cylinders marked with that special permit number and that REN symbol ARE ILLEGAL to use in commerce. That means that those cylinder could not be filled in commerce, used legally in a stationary setting, or transported on the highways. ONLY THE ORIGINAL COMPANY may apply for a renewal of a "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" permit. To apply, of course, that original company must still exist! Now, there is a provision for extending the permit if a NEW company TAKES OVER the old company.....but it must use the PARTICULAR manufacturing facility, the PARTICULAR manufacturing process, must manufacturer the PARTICULAR product or products covered by the special permit, and must stamp all cylinders with the PARTICULAR REN symbol issued to the original company. In other words, it must be the SAME company as the original company, but under new ownership. The new company must meet all of the requirements necessary to obtain "Party Status" to the original exemption. As I understand it, a new company operating under a similar name, with some principals from the original company, in a different manufacturing facility, using a different manufacturing process, doesn't meet the requirements. In this case, as a minimum, the new entity would have a new REN symbol issued, making the original "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" permit invalid.
In the event of the expiration of a "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" DOT special permit, AN INDIVIDUAL USER may apply for "Party Status" and for a conversion of a "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" permit to a "Use Exemption". This "Use Exemption" is issued to a PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY. This application is a little more than a simple "administrative" issue. The individual user must provide data, sufficient in complexity to satisfy the Department of Transportation, that the continued use of the pressure vessel would present no danger to the user, his or her agents, and the public and that failure to obtain the "Use Exemption" would create a "hardship" to the user. THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THIS TYPE OF EXEMPTION and the entire purpose of this special permit conversion process is to allow an entity who has a substantial investment in a pressure vessel (maybe a large factory that bought a number of relatively expensive vessels) to continue to use the vessel after the manufacturer has gone out of business or has abandoned the exemption. It is important to note that a "Use Exemption" is issued to a PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY that has applied for and received "PARTY STATUS". If successful, that PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY would be issued ANOTHER special permit which allows the use of a PARTICULAR vessel. In the case of the scuba cylinders we are discussing, unless the process (as I understand it) is altered by the Department of Transportation, EVERY USER of an E-9791 cylinder would need to apply for a "Use Exemption" special permit FOR THAT CYLINDER. Unless the process is changed by the Department of Transportation, no individual or entity may apply for a "Use Exemption" special permit on behalf of a group or class of users. EACH USER must obtain a "Use Exemption" for their cylinder or cylinders.
I hope someone will be successful in obtaining PARTY STATUS for the E-9791 special permit and would then be able to renew the "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" special permit, giving comfort and cover to the thousands of cylinder owners. I understand why some new company would hope to claim that some more PST cylinders are "just over the horizon". After all, they are trying to fly a phoenix out of the ashes. They are trying to maintain some measure of their old market share. However, I think they have a pretty high hurdle to cross. They don't have a manufacturing facility, have not published an immediate plan for one, and are missing almost everything necessary to call themselves a manufacturing company. Should someone be successful in putting all of this together, meeting the requirements necessary for them to claim "Party Status" on this particular special permit will still be difficult and time consuming. IT IS CLEAR that the concept of EACH Pressed Steel cylinder user obtaining "Party Status" and applying for a "Use Exemption" for their personal cylinders, and having that exemption actually issued, is unworkable. The time, cost, and burden of doing that simply doesn't make sense for a scuba cylinder. It would make more sense to simply trash them and get new ones from an ongoing concern.
I realize that you can make a phone call and have someone at the DOT say "Sure, you just need to apply for a Use Exemption special permit. It's easy. It happens every day". The government and it's employees have a magic way of making the extremely difficult seam easy and the impossible sound feasible. That is how a bureaucracy works. I further realize that I have not quoted any "sources" with this post, nor have I pointed to any "substantial proof" of what I say. I am going on an accumulated body of knowledge of the subject, from a variety of sources. Some of my recollections of how the DOT process works could well be wrong. My knowledge of the subject is the result of casual learning, not a detailed and studied examination of the subject. As I accumulated this knowledge, I never imagined that I would be required to present any credible evidence of the truth of my understanding. Failure to support my comments without sources doesn't necessarily make me wrong. After all, we are just talking here....not presenting a case in court. I expect that my failure to quote specific sources for my information does allow many of us to continue to "whistle through the graveyard", pleasantly oblivous to the impending doom to come with regard to this particular product. Unfortunately, our best proof of what is and what is not possible on this issue will come when the permit expires, nobody steps forward with "Party Status" to renew the "Manufacturer Mark and Sell" exemption, and individuals start the process of gaining "Party Status" and applying for a "Use Exemption" for their personal cylinders. If some new company actually qualifies to continue to manufacture under the E-9791 exemption, thereby providing "grandfather" status for all of the existing cylinders, we will then know once and for all, that it is possible. Until then, we will just continue to imagine what might happen.
Anyway, like everything I post on this board.....just my opinion.
Phil Ellis
oxyhacker:
