FFESSM / CMAS certifications

[Miyaru]

While looking for FFESSM on the board, I came across a discussion (here) about what FFESSM centers in France accept from other agencies.
Which comes down to basically nothing, ze French use zeir own système...

I'm looking for some clarification on the other way around: what FFESSM certifications have equivalent ISO standards?

Some examples:

If any one can point me in the right direction on ISO levels for these certification levels, I'd be grateful.

ISO levels:
24801-1 Scuba Diver outside of France
24801-2 Open Water Diver outside of France
24801-3 Divemaster outside of France
24802-1 Assistant Instructor outside of France
24802-2 Instructor outside of France
11107 Nitrox
24804 CCR no deco
24805 CCR 40m
24806 CCR 60m
24807 CCR 100m

 

[David Carron]

While looking for FFESSM on the board, I came across a discussion (here) about what FFESSM centers in France accept from other agencies.
Which comes down to basically nothing, ze French use zeir own système...

I'm looking for some clarification on the other way around: what FFESSM certifications have equivalent ISO standards?

Some examples:
View attachment 853017

If any one can point me in the right direction on ISO levels for these certification levels, I'd be grateful.

ISO levels:
24801-1 Scuba Diver outside of France
24801-2 Open Water Diver outside of France
24801-3 Divemaster outside of France
24802-1 Assistant Instructor outside of France
24802-2 Instructor outside of France
11107 Nitrox
24804 CCR no deco
24805 CCR 40m
24806 CCR 60m
24807 CCR 100m

None of the FFESSM levels have ISO certification but, roughly speaking, the French "N1" training is coherent with 24801-1, the "N2" with 24801-2 and the "N4" with 24801-3, although there are no-doubt a few discrepancies here and there. The French "nitrox simple" is a fairly good match with ISO 11107.

 

[JMarc]

While looking for FFESSM on the board, I came across a discussion (here) about what FFESSM centers in France accept from other agencies.
Which comes down to basically nothing, ze French use zeir own système...

Things are more complex than that. There is a law (CdS - code du sport), with a wider scope than SCUBA diving, which applies, there are other organisation than the FFESSM, but all are constrained by the law, and the law is giving to the FFESSM some powers that the other organisations don't have.

I won't say anything about guides/dive master, instructors nor cave diving, that's other cans of worms... and the one of open water divers is more than crowded enough.

The CdS framework for divers is to have a depth to which you can dive with supervision of a guide or an instructor (the number after PE, plongeur encadré, supervised diver) and a depth to which you can dive with divers of the same recognized skill (the number after PA, plongeur autonome). There is a mapping defined in the CdS from the levels (niveau) given by the french organizations and from CMAS stars (niveau 1 = CMAS* = PE20, niveau 2 = CMAS ** = PA20/PE40, niveau 3 = CMAS *** = PA60). Since the publication of that framework french organizations started to give certifications directly in PE/PA terms and sometime without an equivalent in the level system (mainly PA20 without PE40 and PA40). The CdS gives freedom to the dive director to maps other certifications (combined with dive log, test dives...) to the PE/PA framework. I expect dive directors from commercial dive centers to map PADI/SSI certifications to something reasonable (all those I know are providing PADI or SSI certifications, it would be surprising not to use a reasonable mapping, I've seen PA20 for OW and PA40 for AOW -- I don't know if those divers had a deep specialty as well; but a caveat is that I'm only familiar with centers on the Mediterranean coast). I've no experience about how non-commercial dive directors handle foreign certifications but I'd surprised if none showed a very parochial vision in their mapping, including accepting only CMAS certifications.

The FFESSM is principally a federation of non profit clubs. It is a founding member of the CMAS and recognizes the certifications delivered by other members (it even gives the equivalent FFESSM certification card on request). The FFESSM also has agreements with at least PADI and SSI to allow crossovers and get FFESSM certifications card with reduced instruction when presenting proof of PADI/SSI certifications.

That's long enough. Very quickly for some things in the cards you showed:

- nitrox: usage of nitrox up to 40% as your only gaz

- nitrox confirmé: usage of nitrox up to pure oxygen and usage of multiple gaz

- niveau 4/GP: can be a guide for PE up to 40m without being an instructor. They are also PA60.

- initiateur: that's the first level of instructor, AFAIK useful only in a non-profit french club, ask them for another certification (it is possible to get it as a niveau 2)

 

[Miyaru]

Things are more complex than that. There is a law (CdS - code du sport), with a wider scope than SCUBA diving, which applies, there are other organisation than the FFESSM, but all are constrained by the law, and the law is giving to the FFESSM some powers that the other organisations don't have.

This is about the legal aspects of those FFESSM cards outside of France.
The laws in France that give FFESSM some extra powers are nice, but irrelevant.

In Malta, the legislation says this:

"independent diver" means a person who shall have at least scubadiver level certification in accordance with MSA EN 14153-2 or equivalent and is also certified to dive to at least thirty metres or twenty-one metres if younger than fifteen years old, and accompanied by an adult who holds a certification in accordance with MSA EN14153-2 or equivalent and also certified to dive to at least thirty metres;​

EN 14153-2 equals ISO 24801-2

None of the FFESSM levels have ISO certification but, roughly speaking, the French "N1" training is coherent with 24801-1, the "N2" with 24801-2 and the "N4" with 24801-3, although there are no-doubt a few discrepancies here and there.

So now it becomes interesting. If there are no defined equivalents of FFESSM, all those certifications would not meet the local requirements. It doesn't matter what other agencies accept as equivalent, it matters what the local law accepts.

 

[David Carron]

So now it becomes interesting. If there are no defined equivalents of FFESSM, all those certifications would not meet the local requirements. It doesn't matter what other agencies accept as equivalent, it matters what the local law accepts.

The local (French) requirements do not mention ISO standards ; for the most part requirements for divers are framed in terms of specific "aptitudes" which are defined in terms of "things you've been trained to do". For instructor certifications, "things you've been trained to do" outside the French system are not considered pertinent.

I guess only the Maltese legislation is going to be able to tell you how they interpret the "or equivalent" in in accordance with MSA EN 14153-2 or equivalent for non ISO certified certification levels, but what I can tell you is that the FFESSM are generally fairly optimistic when they hand out their CMAS certifications so you might like careful if you're relying on CMAS equivalence.

 

[Edward3c]

This is about the legal aspects of those FFESSM cards outside of France.
The laws in France that give FFESSM some extra powers are nice, but irrelevant.

In Malta, the legislation says this:

"independent diver" means a person who shall have at least scubadiver level certification in accordance with MSA EN 14153-2 or equivalent and is also certified to dive to at least thirty metres or twenty-one metres if younger than fifteen years old, and accompanied by an adult who holds a certification in accordance with MSA EN14153-2 or equivalent and also certified to dive to at least thirty metres;​

EN 14153-2 equals ISO 24801-2



So now it becomes interesting. If there are no defined equivalents of FFESSM, all those certifications would not meet the local requirements. It doesn't matter what other agencies accept as equivalent, it matters what the local law accepts.

The CDWS in Egypt also use the ISO as their guide to certifications.