Fellow Diver OOA Incident

[pilot fish]

She didn't really pilot fish. She was a guide. Not an instructor. Not a babysitter. She didn't have to monitor his air. It's up to the individual diver to monitor his/her air.

This is the way a lot of DM's work abroad. You follow them, they lead the way to the sights. They organise and ensure people are ready on the boat. DM's in courses and DM's guiding are two very different people....

SF

You make a good point, but I think she should have been more aware of what the other divers were doing, especially since she knew that the couple were inexperienced and just took a refresher course. That should have been a clue for her to be more aware. She was NOT a buddy to Human Fish either.

Are you saying that the DM has no obligation to the divers?

 

[BigboyDan]

A DM has an inherent responsibility to those who employ him/her, it's the most important part of the job, and we ALL know it.

 

[miketsp]

I've been quite a few places where the guide is just that, a guide, not a baby sitter. They will follow a pre-defined route and during the briefing they often give the expected duration. It's then up to each buddy pair to monitor their own air and adjust their profile accordingly. Sometimes doing a stretch deeper than the guide needs compensation by a stretch shallower/mid-water.

 

[ABQ]

Well, regardless of the guide's role, this day of diving could have been planned a lot better by all; plan the dive, dive the plan, etc.

 

[Capt. Morgan]

If anything you were too polite and deferred to the DM status to act. Whereas, in hindsight you know you should've acted. Lesson learned!

Like we said in the Marine Corp, our 14th General Order was (there are only 13 official General Orders); "To walk my post from flank to flank and take no ***** from any rank. (Don't be intimitated by rank: Do what you gotta do)" When you know what needs to get done; gitter' done.

I can say I've learned this lesson the same way by experience! :10: So, no critisim I've done the same thing of sitting back and waiting because "I'd be oversteeping my boundries by suggesting (or insisting) on something."

I'm glad everything turned out well, you will be a better diver/buddy for it. Don't trust DM's; you are responsible for your own well being. And, if you do that then you can be of assitance to others. Remeber in Rescue Diver class, assess the situation are you going to be a benefit or create a second diver to rescue scenario. It sounds like you wouldn't have created a "second diver in distess" scenario from your telling of the situation.

I realize I will get some critisim for being so "straight forward" but, I've been wrong before and will be again; also, by being wrong I always learn a lesson. So, look forward to the respnes.

But, oh well the truth is the truth. And, like I said you did the right thing; except, for mentioning the 500 pound gorilla in the room during your surface interval. The 500 pound gorilla being OOA. You shoul've piped up and not worried about their ego after all he was going to be your dive buddy on the next dive.

A DM has an inherent responsibility to those who employ him/her, it's the most important part of the job, and we ALL know it.

Yeah, Yeah, diver's don't cut your check; they just give yout tips. Your employer wants to have as many people on the boat as possible. So are you saying your responsiblity is to who employs you or to the customers of your employer! Just look at at a Cruise Boat DMs; how, in the h*ck can that guy/gal be comfortable with 50+ cruise divers (normally with very little skill) doing a dive at one of the boat stops. God, knows who would be a cruise boat DM.

Refrasing your pervious statement with modifications: A DM "should" have an inherent responsiblity to those he/she dives with (not the employer), it's the most important part of the job, and we ALL know it.

You probably are one of that 15% of DM's that are totaly great. And, I think your are just by your respnses on this thread. However, you have to admit what all of us experience regularly; and, that is not encountering a DM like you but rather one like the one mentioned.

 

[ABQ]

Yeah, Yeah, diver's don't cut your check; they just give yout tips. Your employer wants to have as many people on the boat as possible. So are you saying your responsiblity is to who employs you or to the customers of your employer! Just look at at a Cruise Boat DM; how, in the h*ck can that guy/gal be comfortable with 100+ cruise people (normally with very little skill) doing a dive at one of the boats stops. God, knows who would be a cruise boat DM.

Refrasing your pervious statement with modifications: A DM "should" have an inherent responsiblity to those he/she dives with (not the employer), it's the most important part of the job, and we ALL know it.

You may be that 15% of DM's that are totaly great. And, I think your are just by your respnses on this thread. However, you have to admit what all of us experience regularly; and, that is not encountering a DM like you but rather one like on this aforementioned thread.

The responsibility (due diligence) of the DM is to the divers. PERIOD. If the DM has problems with the dive shop/resort/boat, fix them or move on to another employer.

There are many safe ways, but this the way that I do it: eight divers total on any one dive, always buddied, along with two Divemasters (the DMs are each other's buddy.) - ten total divers at most. I go strictly by the book as far as pre-dive planning, dive the plan, buddies all, debrief at the SI, second dive more conservative than the first. And I smile.

As said elsewhere:

Get them there,
Show them a good time,
and get them back.

 

[BigboyDan]

I agree with Capt. Morgan and ABQ. The DM responsiblity is to the divers, MY employer knows this.

 

[Capt. Morgan]

I agree with Capt. Morgan and ABQ. The DM responsiblity is to the divers, MY employer knows this.

BigboyDan: I can tell you are part of the 15% good guys! And, ABQ you are too. But, most of us have encountered a DM like the one mentioned.

Getting back on topic: Can we all agree that humanFish did the right things with a suggesstion of talking about the 500 pound gorilla, a OOA situation during the surface interval.

 

[Sideband]

I love threads like this. I can read the situation and then kick back and tear it apart then put it all back together the way it should be done. Plus, I get the combined experiences and opinions of others.

I like my buddy to be a bit more attentive than the DM seems to have been. She may be guiding but she was still supposed to be your buddy. From what I read, she didn't notice the exchange that took place between the three of you. What if it was you that was OOA or someone else in your position on another dive. I don't want to play flag football with my redundant air supply.

I have had two occasions where I reacted to situations that were a bit beyond my training. I just did what seemed right at the time and then afterwards I picked the events over and found some things that were wrong and others that were right on the money.
Since I dive a lot with brand new divers in less than ideal vis. I think a lot about how to handle situations that are not "part of the dive plan". I think when the other pair came up and showed me his guage I would have asked for her air pressure as well. They have brought me into the problem and ,IMHO, I have a moral obligation to assess and assist. I don't know their respective SAC rates but I do know they are both inexperienced and stressed so they are probably both pretty high. She may be as bad off or worse than him and I may be faced with two OOA divers and only one octo.. Having had a chance to debate it in my head, I think I would ascend with them, especially if she is also getting very low. We could then stop at 15' and at least see if their is enough gas left for even a short safety stop. Hopefully by this time the DM will have noticed and joined us at the surface. Even if I chose not to ascend with them I think the ascent should happen then. I don't think anyone needs to ask permission to end the dive because they don't have any air left. Had they been more experienced they would have probably just gotten your attention, signaled low on air and that they were ending the dive or just ended it.
Good on you for examining the experience. I know you will learn a lot from doing so.

Joe

 

[divenut2001]

Alot of DMs that work on boats are just tour guides. New divers often expect that these DMs will look after them just like their instructor did.

You did good, but you confused them. If an inexperienced diver were to show me he was low on air I would have just given him and his buddy the thumb up sign. Instead, he used up all his remaining air trying to catch up with the DM that he could have used to safely ascend thus creating an OOA.

When new divers ask me about situations like that one I tell them not to waste time, just start ascending. A good DM should notice you're ending the dive and you can let him know if you're ok or not when he does.

I'ld have definitely ask him what hapened down there, especially if he wanted to be my buddy on the next dive...

This was a hawaii dive charter. Small group, the DM, myself, and another couple. Before we launched the wife presented her cert card to the DM, along with her printed receipts from DAN. I thought to myself, "Uh oh. Is someone expecting trouble? Or are they just being extra cautious for some reason?" Perhaps I'm superstitious, or jaded, but I've never seen someone present their insurance card to a DM prior to a dive....this may be common practice in some locales...so please set me straight if I mistakenly took this to be a possible indication of trouble. The DM seemed to shrug it off...like "That's good..but I don't need to see that".

The second thing I heard was the the couple just went through a refresher course to update their skills. "OK, at least they've been diving recently and seem to care for their safety", I thought.

We launch the boat and proceed to the first site. We all get in the water. The DM goes down first. Then we descend, exploring some pinnacles and reef formations, checking critters and what not. One thing I notice about the DM, is that she is kinda cruising ahead by herself...so much for her being a good buddy to me. Oh well. The other couple is managing OK, I guess, aside from thrashing their arms around and just generally showing bad form. 15 or 20 minutes into the dive, the male from the couple shows me his air gauge at it reads about 650 psi. At this point we are in about 60fsw, with no current, and the DM is cruising along about 35 feet ahead and not looking back. I think to myself, "Well, this guy needs to either surface and or alert the DM, and then surface". I motion for him to go catch the DM, then I motion for him to just surface. He more or less shrugs and continues on after the DM. 3 minutes later he reaches her at the ascent line and she immediately shoves her octo is his mouth and up the line the three of them go without a safety stop. I watch from the bottom of the line in abot 35 of water...the DM comes right back down and we continue to breath down our air and explore, then do a safety stop and surface.

Back on the boat there was no mention of him being OOA by anyone. Not sure if he breathed his tank empty or not. During the surface interval on shore his wife complains of minor motion sickness and opts out of the second dive. The three of us head back out. I'm thinking "This guy is a hoover but hopefully he learned a valuable lesson and will not go OOA again." needless to say, the DM and I kept a close eye on him this time. 15 minutes into the dive he motions to the line and is on his way. We hang out close by during his stop and then continue on our way when he has surfaced.

So, I am curious about many things:

1) What's up with DM's that seem to be solo divers with the "Just follow me" approach. In other words, what good is a DM if you can't even get their attention. I've seen about 15% of DM's that seem to act like this.

2) Should I have reacted differently when he showed me his guage? In essence, I gave him two options and let him make the call. I did keep a close eye on him...and close proximity. His wife/buddy was with him the whole way.

3) Should the DM have lectured him and his buddy? Should she have lectured me? Should we have lectured her?

4) Should he have been allowed on the second dive?

5) Even though I was perfectly comfortable waiting on the bottom with 1400psi in my tank, should I have ascended the line as well? I am certainly guilty of wanting to get my money's worth. A poor decision?

In hindsight, I feel I should have been more insistent that he start his ascent. I feel bad for not have taken a more proactive approach....Your comments, criticisms are welcomed and appreciated...