Fatality off of Point Lobos, California

[Beanbag1]

IMHO, a good instructor NEVER can trun it off. It doesn't mean we're always instructing, but it does mean we're always aware of what's going on and what th epotential calamities might be.

To answer your question, you don't dive for fun. You're always noticing other divers, whether they're with you or not. The instructor mentality is always somewhere in the back of your mind. If it's not, then I might repsectfully suggest you (not you specifically, but "you" generically) turn your instructor card back in and go back to being a non-professional-level diver.

- Ken

My great joy after spending massive amounts of time giving my instruction for free ( not PADI) when I watch them like a hawk it is my blessed relief to dive with my husband whom I also keep a close eye but who. I know also has my back.

Judicial Pratt.

 

[Adobo]

Yes, yes - gas planning is important, as well as reasonable weighting. You must have a sheltered life and only dive with trained divers you know well. Pack your gear, get on a plane, dive some other locations, make new dive friends - and you may have to save them from their mistakes. When caca hits fan, make sure you included weight ditching in your buddy checks so you can if s/he doesn't, after other failures.

Don, this incident did not take place at some far away dive destination. It took place at Pt. Lobos state park. My backyard, if you will. Divers don't come here and instabuddy with someone on site. They sign up as buddy teams weeks in advance. You cannot enter the park without having a buddy with you.


I do on occasion dive with a new buddy either in Pt. Lobos or some other site within Monterey/Carmel. And I can tell you this, I would never ever permit a situation wherein my buddy *suddenly* finds himself in 50ft of water low on gas. The only way this could possibly happen is if my buddy and I got separated in which case, I would not be able to ditch his weights for him anyway. Otherwise, any buddy of mine who is unfamiliar gets routine inquiries about their gas status.


Furthermore, I inspect any new buddy's equipment prior to a dive. I dive with 12lbs of ballast in a drysuit with a steel backplate and a worthington hp100. If my buddy was toting around more than 15lbs of ballast in a wetsuit, I would be asking a ton of questions.


My regular buddies that I dive in Monterey/Carmel have been through this process with me (and vice versa). I usually don't worry about them being over-weighted or not knowing how to put together a dive plan that includes gas calculations as we would have done this together before.


But I get your point that when I travel to Hawaii (which I do once or twice a year), I might wind up being around divers who are unfamiliar to me. Except in each and every boat I've ever been on in Hawaii, I have never had a dedicated buddy. Instead, we are asked to dive in groups that are lead by a DM. So I think maybe you are suggesting that I be prepared to have to ditch the weights of any random person that I might find out of gas and overweighted. So that would mean that I would have to familiarize myself with as much as 5 or 7 other people's gear.


See, here is the thing. My intent in participating in this thread is not to identify what someone can do to prepare themselves to rescue some victim. Instead, my intent is to identify the things that someone can do to not be the victim. Understand the difference?

 

[boulderjohn]

I think the image of someone mugging you for your regulator is more the exception than the rule ... if not a myth conjured up as a way to make a point.

I agree. I have never heard of it happening in the real world.

 

[Ayisha]

Hmm. Let's look at this thread alone. I glanced at the first 15 replies (got too tedious after that) after the victim's friend reported back his findings from interviewing the buddy...

Whether the emphasis was on gas planning ON THIS THREAD was not the assertion made. Allison said "boards like these". Any one thread in the first 15 posts isn't necessarily going to show a lot of emphasis on specific recommendations because most people don't know enough about the circumstances yet. Indeed, many members may not have even read the thread yet by that time.

I learned gas management on this board. Back in the day when Lamont posted his first article about rock bottom and how to manage gas appropriately for various dives. I read everything I could on the board, read the accident threads and saw the repetition of basic, avoidable errors. I wrote out a rock bottom table for me simplifying the depths and turn pressures and kept it (still keep it) in my log book for quick reference. I learned to check my gauges frequently and not blindly follow a computer. I learned to estimate about what pressure I should be at any point in the dive. I learned that I needed to save enough gas for me and my buddy to possibly solve a problem and ascend safely, making any necessary stops.

Not only did I learn about gas management for the first time on this board, I learned the importance of not doing trust-me dives, being able to reach my valve, being wary of people fiddling with my gear prior to splashing, checking my gauge while inhaling to ensure the valve is on, being correctly weighted, various types of efficient finning, the pluses and minuses of various equipment, the need to be self-reliant, and the importance of situational awareness, among countless others.

I constantly see certain members (they know who they are) go way out of their way in various forums to patiently explain concepts to strangers on this board, re-explain them again and again, answer all kinds of questions, analyze accidents and incidents, and make recommendations to help people be better, safer divers. This takes time, energy, and dedication, and many of the same people keep helping other divers for years.

Perhaps I have been reading different threads than you or Allison over the years. I see an abundance of diver education in key concepts on this board available to anyone willing to absorb it, learn from it, and practice it.

 

[DandyDon]

Good points on preventing accidents, both of you...

when I travel to Hawaii (which I do once or twice a year), I might wind up being around divers who are unfamiliar to me. Except in each and every boat I've ever been on in Hawaii, I have never had a dedicated buddy. Instead, we are asked to dive in groups that are lead by a DM. So I think maybe you are suggesting that I be prepared to have to ditch the weights of any random person that I might find out of gas and overweighted. So that would mean that I would have to familiarize myself with as much as 5 or 7 other people's gear.

Sounds like my Cozumel trips. On those boats, I do try to make it known to all of the others that they are welcome to use my CO tank tester (some will ask if they want all of the tanks tested, but I don't go that far), and I try to make it known that if anyone needs air (screws up), they can grab my alternate or always on pony without asking - I will understand and cooperate. When I dive with my home bud, we do communicate & ask about tank pressures, but with groups - I mostly hope for the best, while trying to not be the screw up.

Knowing how to ditch weights on every different diver in the group, with some new divers some days, is a challenge. I don't want to pretend that I am some sort of scuba guardian. The rental gear divers are generally in cheapest weight belts, easy to grab and drop if the buckle doesn't hide somehow; the integrated BC divers, not always so obvious. The DM is generally at the front of the line, me more likely at rear point, so I just try to watch for problems out of the corner of my eye and hope I will have good ideas if the time comes. And however it comes out, if I ditch their weights or their kit, win or lose - I still hope I look like I had good ideas to witnesses when the investigation is done, or some stranger in another state calls me on the phone like at the start of this thread.

For buddy pairs tho, known divers or not - that last ditch effort of dumping weights or kits is not one to fumble. If things have gone that far, it would be good to have checked on those releases while on the boat.

 

[peterbj7]

I agree. I have never heard of it happening in the real world.

It's happened to me twice "in the real world". On one occasion I already had someone (a complete stranger) breathing off my octopus and someone else (known to me, and a DM no less) came up and grabbed the regulator from my mouth. I elected to share air with the first of those people, as he seemed the more composed.

Of course it's "happened to me" many times in an instructor/student relationship. But the above two occasions were totally unrehearsed and quite a surprise to me.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Knowing how to ditch weights on every different diver in the group, with some new divers some days, is a challenge.

Not really. It's not rocket science.

For buddy pairs tho, known divers or not - that last ditch effort of dumping weights or kits is not one to fumble.

As stated above, it's not all that hard. And whether it takes you 10 seconds or 60 seconds, it's doable. Generally IMHO the problems in ditching werights deal with anxieties in the person doing the ditching realzing the gravity of the situation, not the degree of difficulty in ditching the weights.

And quite frankly, if you (generic "you" not Don "you") can't ditch someone's ditchable weights or you can't figure out how to unclip them from their BC/tank/reg/octo, then maybe you shouldn't be diving in the first place.

- Ken

 

[3D diver]

Thinking about this thread a day or so ago I remembered being taught that when things appear to be heading south take off your belt and hold it, ready to drop. I recall actually doing this once---at the breakwater I think---but not having to release.

 

[DandyDon]

Thinking about this thread a day or so ago I remembered being taught that when things appear to be heading south take off your belt and hold it, ready to drop. I recall actually doing this once---at the breakwater I think---but not having to release.

This person has suggested that here...

Not really. It's not rocket science.



As stated above, it's not all that hard. And whether it takes you 10 seconds or 60 seconds, it's doable. Generally IMHO the problems in ditching werights deal with anxieties in the person doing the ditching realzing the gravity of the situation, not the degree of difficulty in ditching the weights.

And quite frankly, if you (generic "you" not Don "you") can't ditch someone's ditchable weights or you can't figure out how to unclip them from their BC/tank/reg/octo, then maybe you shouldn't be diving in the first place.

- Ken

 

[Adobo]

Whether the emphasis was on gas planning ON THIS THREAD was not the assertion made. Allison said "boards like these". Any one thread in the first 15 posts isn't necessarily going to show a lot of emphasis on specific recommendations because most people don't know enough about the circumstances yet. Indeed, many members may not have even read the thread yet by that time.

When I said "15 posts", I wasn't referring to the first 15 posts. I was referring to the first 15 posts after we got second/third hand details from the victim's friend. And you are right, even at that point, we really had only bits and pieces of information available. But in those 15 posts, there was no shortage of people pointing at the lack of rescue skills as a primary factor in this incident.

With regards to what Allison thinks that is or is not emphasized in this forum, I'll let her speak to that. But I will just copy and paste what she specifically typed (hint: it wasn't about gas planning):

With regards to being overweighted, I walked away from this event feeling like this man died because he was overweighted. I realize that's not all there is to it, and it's a really dramatic way to put it, but that's how I felt. There are a couple reasons that I thought this was a big "lesson" from this incident:
- Figuring out the proper weighting for your rig is a relatively simple, one-time task. Once you've got it, it's not something you have to worry about on each dive, whereas gas planning, checking your gauge, etc. are things that you do have to take care of on each dive, and are thus more subject to screwing up on any given dive.
- This isn't something that I see emphasized at all in typical classes, or on boards like these. Most people come out of basic OW with some vague idea that they have to manage/monitor their gas supply so as not to run out of gas. But it seems like almost no one comes out of class with the proper weighting, the tools to figure out the proper weighting, or an understanding of why proper weighting is important. OW instructors routinely overweight divers, instead of teaching them how to dive properly weighted. Then they leave class, and see nothing wrong with continuing to dive overweighted. A significant portion of students I see in Fundies classes arrive to class overweighted, and quite often by a lot. (Some even make it far beyond Fundies diving significantly overweighted... just ask adobo )