Fatality off of Point Lobos, California

[3D diver]

HA! ROFL!!!

In Florida, they have two day courses. Where I'm from in New England, there were 2 and 1/2 day courses (friday evening, sat/sun) for complete certification!

Yea, the biggest problem is how "easy" it is to be certified today. You can show up at a resort and dive the next day. Really scary stuff!

My courses were month-long, 3 weekends + the friday evening before the first class for orientation. We taught full-day's, no 4 hours nonsense, it was a lot of training.

Guess I am out of touch...had to Google ROFL. :blush:

 

[tye1138]

Guess I am out of touch...had to Google ROFL. :blush:

Nice, makin' me feel young!

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Like being in permanent instructor mode. When on earth would you get to dive for fun if these people were always your buddies?

IMHO, a good instructor NEVER can trun it off. It doesn't mean we're always instructing, but it does mean we're always aware of what's going on and what th epotential calamities might be.

To answer your question, you don't dive for fun. You're always noticing other divers, whether they're with you or not. The instructor mentality is always somewhere in the back of your mind. If it's not, then I might repsectfully suggest you (not you specifically, but "you" generically) turn your instructor card back in and go back to being a non-professional-level diver.

- Ken

 

[tye1138]

Like being in permanent instructor mode. When on earth would you get to dive for fun if these people were always your buddies?

I agree with what Ken said once an instructor, always an instructor and will add;

For me, part of the fun of diving is helping people. I enjoy diving with other people and helping them become better divers. If I'm not in the mood or wanna check out a new site before taking students there, I'll do a solo dive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I can partly agree with Ken, but not entirely. He's right that you're always aware of what's going on around you, but I do a lot of fun dives with students and former students ... by that I mean dives that are not part of a class. Sure, we're always learning ... and that works both ways. But it's not a class, and it doesn't feel like work ... so it's a fun dive.

Also, I tend to do a lot of solo diving on my own time. Part of the attraction is the ability to turn off my instructor mode and just focus on the goals of the dive ... which almost always involve photography.

I never want my diving to feel like work ... not even when I'm teaching. The whole point of diving is recreation. When I'm relaxed and having fun I think I teach a better class, and my students get more out of it because I'm putting more into it. The one time I started to feel like diving was a job, I took a year off from teaching for an attitude adjustment. I think, overall, it made me a better instructor.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[alwaingold]

First off, my condolences to the family, friends, and dive buddy of the victim.

I was at Point Lobos when this incident occurred, and I called 911. The buddy gave me all of the details of the incident, since I was relaying them to the 911 operator (who was rather insistent that I extract *all* of the details from the distraught buddy). Afterward, I felt like there were some pretty concrete lessons from this incident. I didn't want to post the details, since I felt like it wasn't right to post what the buddy told me under those circumstances. So I am glad the details have come out. The facts that have been posted here are more or less what I was told. However, I was not under the impression that the victim initially surfaced unconscious.

I discussed the incident extensively with Ted (adobo), so he's pretty much already posted what I had to say on the matter. I just wanted to add [-]a couple of comments [/-]a lengthy diatribe.

With regards to being overweighted, I walked away from this event feeling like this man died because he was overweighted. I realize that's not all there is to it, and it's a really dramatic way to put it, but that's how I felt. There are a couple reasons that I thought this was a big "lesson" from this incident:
- Figuring out the proper weighting for your rig is a relatively simple, one-time task. Once you've got it, it's not something you have to worry about on each dive, whereas gas planning, checking your gauge, etc. are things that you do have to take care of on each dive, and are thus more subject to screwing up on any given dive.
- This isn't something that I see emphasized at all in typical classes, or on boards like these. Most people come out of basic OW with some vague idea that they have to manage/monitor their gas supply so as not to run out of gas. But it seems like almost no one comes out of class with the proper weighting, the tools to figure out the proper weighting, or an understanding of why proper weighting is important. OW instructors routinely overweight divers, instead of teaching them how to dive properly weighted. Then they leave class, and see nothing wrong with continuing to dive overweighted. A significant portion of students I see in Fundies classes arrive to class overweighted, and quite often by a lot. (Some even make it far beyond Fundies diving significantly overweighted... just ask adobo ).

Yes, I realize that ditching weights was an option here. But it shouldn't have been necessary. And if a diver doesn't understand the concept of how to be properly weighted, then how is he to determine how much of his weight must be ditchable for his rig to be safe?

I also totally agree with Ted's assertion about safety stops being optional. Based on the account that I got (with a small amount of interpretation on my part), I believe that the victim called the dive when he suddenly realized he'd hit 500 psi (or maybe less than 500 psi). The team was much further out/deeper than they planned to be when they ascended. The team made it to safety stop depth and stopped. Then sometime after that, the victim signaled out of gas. Based on my experience with classes, and also some recent travels where I was exposed to random divers, I've been amazed by how people really hold the safety stop sacred. I suspect this is pounded into their heads in their training. May I suggest that instructors consider instead pounding into people's heads the idea of making it to the surface alive? I can only imagine the sequence of events that would lead to being out of gas on a dive with mandatory decompression, but even on such a dive... better bent than drowned. And on a recreational profile, the likelihood of being bent after a safe ascent sans safety stop is tiny! Why aren't divers taught that if they are in a low-on-gas ascent, they should assess whether they have the gas to do a safety stop, and if they don't, they should either initiate gas sharing, or head for the surface?

I probably haven't said anything that wasn't already said on this thread, but I just had to get that out of my system!

Finally, I wanted to address some of the earliest posts about the buddy's response. I can't believe some of the posts that were attacking the buddy, or implying that the buddy's "panic" somehow led to the victim's demise. I believe the buddy did everything he could to assist the victim, until it came to the point where he felt his own survival was at risk. That is all that we can ask anyone to do.

Allison

 

[Ayisha]

- This isn't something that I see emphasized at all in typical classes, or on boards like these.

Everything you've mentioned about what should be emphasized has been discussed repeatedly on this board and others.

I probably haven't said anything that wasn't already said on this thread, but I just had to get that out of my system!

Exactly.

 

[DandyDon]

Everything you've mentioned about what should be emphasized has been discussed repeatedly on this board and others.

Yep. Got to wonder how much it takes tho since divers keep dying with some same mistakes in common. Well, most divers don't read SB & this forum I guess.

First off, my condolences to the family, friends, and dive buddy of the victim.

I was at Point Lobos when this incident occurred, and I called 911. The buddy gave me all of the details of the incident, since I was relaying them to the 911 operator (who was rather insistent that I extract *all* of the details from the distraught buddy). Afterward, I felt like there were some pretty concrete lessons from this incident. I didn't want to post the details, since I felt like it wasn't right to post what the buddy told me under those circumstances. So I am glad the details have come out. The facts that have been posted here are more or less what I was told. However, I was not under the impression that the victim initially surfaced unconscious.

I discussed the incident extensively with Ted (adobo), so he's pretty much already posted what I had to say on the matter. I just wanted to add [-]a couple of comments [/-]a lengthy diatribe.

That must have been terrible even to have to be that close to it, Alwaingold. Good of you to do what you could, and I hope you are getting the support you deserve in dealing with it. I remember one newbie diver who knew the deceased posting early here, taking it very hard, who had phoned the survivor to quiz & admonish him! It's got to be rough on everyone involved.

With regards to being overweighted, I walked away from this event feeling like this man died because he was overweighted. I realize that's not all there is to it, and it's a really dramatic way to put it, but that's how I felt. There are a couple reasons that I thought this was a big "lesson" from this incident:
- Figuring out the proper weighting for your rig is a relatively simple, one-time task. Once you've got it, it's not something you have to worry about on each dive, whereas gas planning, checking your gauge, etc. are things that you do have to take care of on each dive, and are thus more subject to screwing up on any given dive.
- This isn't something that I see emphasized at all in typical classes, or on boards like these. Most people come out of basic OW with some vague idea that they have to manage/monitor their gas supply so as not to run out of gas. But it seems like almost no one comes out of class with the proper weighting, the tools to figure out the proper weighting, or an understanding of why proper weighting is important. OW instructors routinely overweight divers, instead of teaching them how to dive properly weighted. Then they leave class, and see nothing wrong with continuing to dive overweighted. A significant portion of students I see in Fundies classes arrive to class overweighted, and quite often by a lot. (Some even make it far beyond Fundies diving significantly overweighted... just ask adobo ).

Yes, I realize that ditching weights was an option here. But it shouldn't have been necessary. And if a diver doesn't understand the concept of how to be properly weighted, then how is he to determine how much of his weight must be ditchable for his rig to be safe?

I don't remember ever getting any instruction on weighting; if I did, it was minimal. I just have to think still, tho - even more important: the diver & the buddy both need to know how to ditch personal & buddy's weights, and practice it so it will not be a struggle for either to ditch personal or buddy weights. I've also seen divers underweighted to the point they couldn't stay down on SS, much less get down then to help a buddy.

My home bud hasn't dived in a couple of years now, but he's still got all of his kit and probably still will some day. I dread that next time. He asked me yesterday what was new on SB, and I thought of this thread when I replied that divers are still drowning with weights intact - remind him that when he dives with me, we practice weight ditching & oral inflation before & at the start of the first dive, every trip. We have similar BCs, limited as to how much non-ditchable weight we can carry, but even in warm water we want most of the weight in our ditchable pockets - and they are easy to ditch.

I also totally agree with Ted's assertion about safety stops being optional. Based on the account that I got (with a small amount of interpretation on my part), I believe that the victim called the dive when he suddenly realized he'd hit 500 psi (or maybe less than 500 psi). The team was much further out/deeper than they planned to be when they ascended. The team made it to safety stop depth and stopped. Then sometime after that, the victim signaled out of gas. Based on my experience with classes, and also some recent travels where I was exposed to random divers, I've been amazed by how people really hold the safety stop sacred. I suspect this is pounded into their heads in their training. May I suggest that instructors consider instead pounding into people's heads the idea of making it to the surface alive? I can only imagine the sequence of events that would lead to being out of gas on a dive with mandatory decompression, but even on such a dive... better bent than drowned. And on a recreational profile, the likelihood of being bent after a safe ascent sans safety stop is tiny! Why aren't divers taught that if they are in a low-on-gas ascent, they should assess whether they have the gas to do a safety stop, and if they don't, they should either initiate gas sharing, or head for the surface?

I probably haven't said anything that wasn't already said on this thread, but I just had to get that out of my system!

Finally, I wanted to address some of the earliest posts about the buddy's response. I can't believe some of the posts that were attacking the buddy, or implying that the buddy's "panic" somehow led to the victim's demise. I believe the buddy did everything he could to assist the victim, until it came to the point where he felt his own survival was at risk. That is all that we can ask anyone to do.

Allison

I only remember one who really blamed the buddy, as I just mentioned. Some may have suggested that both panicked. This other fellow was there and posted his observations...

We were there and i had a chance to talk to this pair before their last dive and after...
The fellow who died was a younger guy, very quite per my account and did not talk much, and in wet suit.
His surviving buddy was in dry suit. remember that point.
Per my account we started gearing up after they came out of a first dive and it probably took us 30 min to get in the water.
There after we had 110min dive and when we surfaced on SMB rescue jet ski was waiting for us saying diver was missing for 30 minutes or so.
So it looks like they had about an hour surface time, hardly enough to get warm in wet suit.
That day vis was very nice 40ft or so in 60ft of water., so easy to get carried away with scenery.
I've shortly talked to surviving buddy his word were "we were in 50ft of water, he (deceased) started going down out of air on a stop, i donated , we surfaced, i could not hold him up, it all went so fast" also he mentioned it was their 3rd or so dive together and that he (deceased) had about 15 dives.

So here is my take.

Set up:
1. Remember myself first few dives im scared and checking everything every minute, after about 10 or so , till first problem i was invincible having
145 ft dive #11 in my book, came up with 200psi that day.
2. Wet suit on second dive in 50 degree water will make you use more gas, so hard for guy in dry suit to judge your consumption.
3. No long hose makes it hard to donate and requires awkward position, try for once donate AIR2 or similar
4. dissimilar gear requires clear brains to think , which may not be possible under panic, set in #3, when you being pulled down.

Outcomes.
1. Very sad and preventable accident
2. Deceased was responsible for his own gas no question there. As a team they should plan that requirement. But ultimately it is my buddy' responsibility for him and for me to check his own SPG and make me aware of problems.
3. Surviving buddy did what he could in this situation, sure we could argue what he could of done, but he did not and this is the end of it., he will live with this memory for all his life, i would not want this.
4. As an alternative, rescue attempt of OOA diver by unprepared but willing buddy more likely result in 2 victims. i recall we had it few years back.

 

[Adobo]

Everything you've mentioned about what should be emphasized has been discussed repeatedly on this board and others.

Hmm. Let's look at this thread alone. I glanced at the first 15 replies (got too tedious after that) after the victim's friend reported back his findings from interviewing the buddy on the. Of the first 15 replies, almost all talk one way or another about the buddy's inability to ditch the victim's weights. Lack of training, panic, whatever. All focused and emphasizing the failure to ditch the weight. One post of those 15 did mention something about gas planning issues.

And even after a couple of people tried to make the case that the ditching of the weights was a secondary issue (and not primary), Dandy Don still insists:

I don't remember ever getting any instruction on weighting; if I did, it was minimal. I just have to think still, tho - even more important: the diver & the buddy both need to know how to ditch personal & buddy's weights, and practice it so it will not be a struggle for either to ditch personal or buddy weights. I've also seen divers underweighted to the point they couldn't stay down on SS, much less get down then to help a buddy.

Personally, I could not disagree more with Dandy Don. The most important take away for me on this incident is gas planning. The second most important take away is that divers need to be properly weighted. The fact that people (namely me) have brought up overweighting does not mean that it has been a point of emphasis in this thread. To the contrary, the vast majority of the contributors to this thread seem to have largely treated the point as if it were trivial. And personally, I find that to be really a shame.

 

[DandyDon]

Hmm. Let's look at this thread alone. I glanced at the first 15 replies (got too tedious after that) after the victim's friend reported back his findings from interviewing the buddy on the. Of the first 15 replies, almost all talk one way or another about the buddy's inability to ditch the victim's weights. Lack of training, panic, whatever. All focused and emphasizing the failure to ditch the weight. One post of those 15 did mention something about gas planning issues.

And even after a couple of people tried to make the case that the ditching of the weights was a secondary issue (and not primary), Dandy Don still insists:

​

Personally, I could not disagree more with Dandy Don. The most important take away for me on this incident is gas planning. The second most important take away is that divers need to be properly weighted. The fact that people (namely me) have brought up overweighting does not mean that it has been a point of emphasis in this thread. To the contrary, the vast majority of the contributors to this thread seem to have largely treated the point as if it were trivial. And personally, I find that to be really a shame.

Yes, yes - gas planning is important, as well as reasonable weighting. You must have a sheltered life and only dive with trained divers you know well. Pack your gear, get on a plane, dive some other locations, make new dive friends - and you may have to save them from their mistakes. When caca hits fan, make sure you included weight ditching in your buddy checks so you can if s/he doesn't, after other failures.