Fatality Off Miami Beach - Florida

[danvolker]

Your comment made me stop and think, and then I looked at some of your recent posts. In one of them you said:

A "fairly new diver" should not be diving the blue hole and be taken down to 145ft as you are saying. that is the definition of a "trust me dive" and not a smart thing to do. T

On my last trip to Belize I was on an excursion with two girls that were just certified. For their very first dive after passing their OW certification the dive shop in San Pedro took them right to the Blue Hole. That was not the first time I had heard of that happening either. Going to the Blue Hole from San Pedro is quite a bit more expensive than the local reefs and I see it as a complete money grab from operators with a complete and utter lack of concern for the safety of their customers.

So in some situations you do believe a business has a responsibility to look out for their customers.

Keep in mind the site this accident occurred at, is as easy a dive site as you can be in outside of a swimming pool or bath tub.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have been on many boats in which the DM on board did a check of the divers to make sure they were properly matched up with a buddy before a dive. Many of the more elaborate dive operations require a checkout dive prior to the first real dive. The PADI DM training manual has an entire section on evaluating the skill level of a certified diver so that appropriate steps can be taken. Whether or not you think it should be necessary for someone to do that on a boat with certified divers, the fact is that it is very commonly done and even taught in professional training.

Let's look at the Gabe Watson case. He and his bride (Tina) were on a dive trip with a liveaboard in Australia. The dive operator had a policy that required checkout dives for all divers. Gabe and his wife were allowed to skip that dive on the basis of Gabe's certification as a NASDS Rescue Diver. In the final analysis, Tina's subsequent death was determined to be a result of neither of them having the skills needed for that first dive, a relatively challenging one. Because they did not follow their own policy in regard to the checkout dive, the operator was found to be partially at fault and had to pay a hefty fine.

 

[brnt999]

I have been on many boats in which the DM on board did a check of the divers to make sure they were properly matched up with a buddy before a dive. Many of the more elaborate dive operations require a checkout dive prior to the first real dive. The PADI DM training manual has an entire section on evaluating the skill level of a certified diver so that appropriate steps can be taken. Whether or not you think it should be necessary for someone to do that on a boat with certified divers, the fact is that it is very commonly done and even taught in professional training.

Let's look at the Gabe Watson case. He and his bride (Tina) were on a dive trip with a liveaboard in Australia. The dive operator had a policy that required checkout dives for all divers. Gabe and his wife were allowed to skip that dive on the basis of Gabe's certification as a NASDS Rescue Diver. In the final analysis, Tina's subsequent death was determined to be a result of neither of them having the skills needed for that first dive, a relatively challenging one. Because they did not follow their own policy in regard to the checkout dive, the operator was found to be partially at fault and had to pay a hefty fine.

I was going to say, I think no matter what one's personal philosophy is about taking responsibility for yourself, civil courts have determined a business has to show some reasonable level of care to protect their customers. If someone who works on a boat saw a diver obviously in over their head, they couldn't just turn a blind eye.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I was going to say, I think no matter what one's personal philosophy is about taking responsibility for yourself, civil courts have determined a business has to show some reasonable level of care to protect their customers. If someone who works on a boat saw a diver obviously in over their head, they couldn't just turn a blind eye.

Agreed however adding a bunch of staff to interview each guest is not required IMO. If certification/experience can be produced and nothing else appears to conflict, the I think the op has done what they need to. The rest should be up to the diver.


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[SC_Hoaty]

Many dive ops will offer the services of a guide or private DM to escort new, rusty, or unfamiliar divers who would like this extra help, at extra cost. Those who would like a bit more supervision should not expect all the other divers on the boat to pay for it.

 

[diverrex]

Agreed however adding a bunch of staff to interview each guest is not required IMO. If certification/experience can be produced and nothing else appears to conflict, the I think the op has done what they need to. The rest should be up to the diver.

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Totally agree. Isn't that the whole point of agencies and certification in the first place? One receives training and then the agencies certifies a certain level of skill such that each individual dive operator does not have to go through the process of qualifying their customers.

 

[boulderjohn]

Totally agree. Isn't that the whole point of agencies and certification in the first place? One receives training and then the agencies certifies a certain level of skill such that each individual dive operator does not have to go through the process of qualifying their customers.

About a month ago I taught a refresher course for 8 divers. Of those 8, 6 did very well and only needed a tuneup. The other 2 were a husband and wife who had not been diving in 11 years. They both had a lot of trouble, but the wife was close to hopeless. She should have retaken the entire course again. I will assume that the NAUI training they received more than a decade ago was just fine, but the intervening years were not kind to them.

You really can't count on anything when you are a professional on a boat. That is why the DM training materials stress what you should look for when watching the divers get on the boat and prepare to dive.

Please note that I am speaking generically and not making any assumptions about what was done or not done on this boat on this dive.

 

[NAM001]

Is ti reasonable to guess that the weight belt was may have been put on first and the bc over it? Had it been the other way a round the belt may have had to come off first. I do see so many put the belt on first. Many times it makes no difference but with a crotch strap so much changes. Could she have been using rented gear and following old habbits?

Probably an avoidable incident but sad never the less. Regards to the family

 

[diverrex]

About a month ago I taught a refresher course for 8 divers. Of those 8, 6 did very well and only needed a tuneup. The other 2 were a husband and wife who had not been diving in 11 years. They both had a lot of trouble, but the wife was close to hopeless. She should have retaken the entire course again. I will assume that the NAUI training they received more than a decade ago was just fine, but the intervening years were not kind to them.

You really can't count on anything when you are a professional on a boat. That is why the DM training materials stress what you should look for when watching the divers get on the boat and prepare to dive.

Please note that I am speaking generically and not making any assumptions about what was done or not done on this boat on this dive.

I agree that the cert card is only part of the story. In an earlier post I mentioned I applaud dive ops that ask questions about dive experience and have certain rules like "if you haven't dived in over one year you need to take a refresher from us first". I think if I was running a dive op I'd ask year certified, highest cert, lifetime dives, most recent dive, and number of dives in the past year. Then based on those answers have rules regarding whether they need a refresher, DM guide, etc. also realizing none of that is foolproof in catching bad divers but better than nothing. I suspect if the op asked this victim those questions some red flags may have popped up. Also I would not allow anyone to dive if they did not understand the languages of the boat crew. I have 400+ dives, whatever that means, but if I went to China no way would I dive off a boat unless I knew they would give instructions in English.

Last weekend I did a local SoCal trip. The group chartering the boat sent an email out two days before the trip wanting to know if anyone had less than 50 cold water dives. Not sure what they were doing if anyone did but at least they were asking.

 

[DandyDon]

Agreed however adding a bunch of staff to interview each guest is not required IMO. If certification/experience can be produced and nothing else appears to conflict, the I think the op has done what they need to. The rest should be up to the diver.


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Yep, that's how my last Key Largo op did it. Got AOW? Then you can dive the Grove. Got Nitrox card? Then you can have Nitrox. No DM in the water, altho I think the surface rescue abilities were great - but up to me to surface myself.

Honestly, most dive Ops I've dive with never looked at my cards, as long as I filled out the release. Now that could backfire in court.

Many dive ops will offer the services of a guide or private DM to escort new, rusty, or unfamiliar divers who would like this extra help, at extra cost. Those who would like a bit more supervision should not expect all the other divers on the boat to pay for it.

A great idea, but how can we identify those in need? Chatting on a forum, I'll suggest such to anyone on their first ocean dive anywhere, first Coz drift dive, etc. but Ops seldom do. It'd make them look like a money grabber even tho they would actually lose money on the free spot for such a DM. My home Lds sponsors a lot of trips and takes a lot of newbies for their first ocean dives all the same dive. I bet that Inst is a wreck the first day.

Is ti reasonable to guess that the weight belt was may have been put on first and the bc over it? Had it been the other way a round the belt may have had to come off first. I do see so many put the belt on first. Many times it makes no difference but with a crotch strap so much changes. Could she have been using rented gear and following old habbits?

Probably an avoidable incident but sad never the less. Regards to the family

I am speculating that coming from China, perhaps as non-rev airline employee, that she was diving all rental gear unfamiliar to her, as well as not used to weighting in pounds, plus who know what else. I had a boat pick buddy on the Grove once from Europe that had no idea how to read his Spg or rented computer.