Fatality Off Miami Beach - Florida

[letterboy]

Yep, that's how my last Key Largo op did it. Got AOW? Then you can dive the Grove. Got Nitrox card? Then you can have Nitrox. No DM in the water, altho I think the surface rescue abilities were great - but up to me to surface myself.

Honestly, most dive Ops I've dive with never looked at my cards, as long as I filled out the release. Now that could backfire in court.


A great idea, but how can we identify those in need? Chatting on a forum, I'll suggest such to anyone on their first ocean dive anywhere, first Coz drift dive, etc. but Ops seldom do. It'd make them look like a money grabber even tho they would actually lose money on the free spot for such a DM. My home Lds sponsors a lot of trips and takes a lot of newbies for their first ocean dives all the same dive. I bet that Inst is a wreck the first day.


I am speculating that coming from China, perhaps as non-rev airline employee, that she was diving all rental gear unfamiliar to her, as well as not used to weighting in pounds, plus who know what else. I had a boat pick buddy on the Grove once from Europe that had no idea how to read his Spg or rented computer.

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I know someone who showed up to do a some keys diving, the only thing the op wanted was an ow card...

Doubles, stages and scooters the we're this persons gear... But all the op wanted was an ow card...

Scary that an untrained diver could kill themselves doing something stupid when the op could have put a stop to it early.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

A great idea, but how can we identify those in need?

Of additional supervision in the water? They self-identify. They know their skill level and hire the help needed. Simple. Personal responsibility.

 

[diverrex]

I don't think we need to consider changing a system that works reasonably well because someone died. If someone dies in a freeway accident we don't lower the speed limit. At some point the individual has to take responsibility. Don't jump in the ocean unless you are comfortable. It's sad that she died. And seems strange that no one saw enough to be able to help. But based on the limited info provided it doesn't seem that this lady should have been diving except with direct professional supervision. She was the one in the best position to realize that but for some reason did not or ignored it. Maybe she was confused. Maybe she assumed it would be a guided dive. We really don't know enough and probably never will. Though I do suspect it's likely that if we had her cert and dive history that may shed some light on it.

 

[Anna G]

Honestly, most dive Ops I've dive with never looked at my cards, as long as I filled out the release. Now that could backfire in court.

That's really the only part that I can see as potentially negligent, if the card wasn't checked. On page 4 there's some discussion about cards being checked or not on that particular trip, so I guess it's possible that hers wasn't checked. But maybe it was.

Re: brnt999's comment on (civil) legal responsibility, it seems to apply when a dive op breaks its own rules/regulations. So not checking a c-card when they're supposed to, or not making the divers do the check-out dive which is necessary according to their own policies. The negligence isn't because "wah, you didn't have safety people looking out for potentially unskilled divers", the negligence is due to the disregard of the rules/regulations.

I see it like getting a driver's license. I can rent a car if I have one; if my driver's ed was shoddy and I passed by the skin of my teeth and really have no business being out on the highway in bad weather, well...it's not really the car rental's responsibility to make sure I know how to drive well.
Now, if they don't check that I have a driver's license, that could certainly get them in trouble.

 

[Scott from LongIsland]

Your comment made me stop and think, and then I looked at some of your recent posts. In one of them you said:

A "fairly new diver" should not be diving the blue hole and be taken down to 145ft as you are saying. that is the definition of a "trust me dive" and not a smart thing to do. T

On my last trip to Belize I was on an excursion with two girls that were just certified. For their very first dive after passing their OW certification the dive shop in San Pedro took them right to the Blue Hole. That was not the first time I had heard of that happening either. Going to the Blue Hole from San Pedro is quite a bit more expensive than the local reefs and I see it as a complete money grab from operators with a complete and utter lack of concern for the safety of their customers.

So in some situations you do believe a business has a responsibility to look out for their customers.

I think as a general human being a person running a business should not put someone in jeopardy of losing their life for the sake of making a few bucks...but unfortunately, that is usually not the case these days.

You mentioned what I posted about the Blue hole in Belize and that was entirely my point there too.

A 2 day OW course! Two days. Day three...Blue Hole. I couldn't believe it. That's probably $1500+ right there in 3 days after all is said and done. Seems to be quite common though and not just Belize.

But who is to blame? I spoke to these girls. They were not dumb women. They knew it seemed over their head but they did it anyway. I don't fault the shop in that respect.

 

[uncfnp]

Let me throw this out...

Yes, a dive operator is responsible for providing a safe environment for diving, to the extent the factors are controllable. A knowledgable captain, a safe boat, safety equipment, a capable crew, I think you get the idea. And checking certification should be part of that as well. My opinion is that asking dive history is also a good idea but we all know that the "right answers" are easy to learn in order to avoid refresher, private DM requirements.

The captain, crew and passengers are morally expected to intervene, to the extent they are able, with any diver that is obviously unsafe. Are they legally required, I don't have that answer.

My personal belief, in life not just diving, is that we all need to be more personally responsible for our actions and choices. Depending on someone else (or regulations) to compensate for our lack of personal responsibility is just another indication of a society or culture in decline.

 

[oly5050user]

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I know someone who showed up to do a some keys diving, the only thing the op wanted was an ow card...

Doubles, stages and scooters the we're this persons gear... But all the op wanted was an ow card...

Scary that an untrained diver could kill themselves doing something stupid when the op could have put a stop to it early.

So true. I was on key largo 2weeks a
Go and the dive op did not ask to see a card from either of us..no I will not name the op here.

 

[Scott from LongIsland]

I have not been to a ton of places to dive but I did find the diving in the Keys to be by far the most hands off diving I have ever seen.

In Key West we took a 6-pack boat that was highly recommended on this board. We went to the Vandenburg where the Capt/DM/guide, whatever you want to call him...hopped right in the water leaving nobody on the boat. I was shocked.

I did not splash. I just did not feel that it was safe to leave the boat unattended like that in any seas...never mind that it was somewhat of a heavy swell with a strong current.

I was the only person to skip that dive. It was an easy decision. I look to take care of myself. If someone else wants to take more risks then I do...go right ahead. We all have different levels of risk taking that we are comfortable with.

 

[tridacna]

I have not been to a ton of places to dive but I did find the diving in the Keys to be by far the most hands off diving I have ever seen.

Come to the Jersey Shore. Florida will seem like a supervised nursery school.

 

[Scott from LongIsland]

Come to the Jersey Shore. Florida will seem like a supervised nursery school.

That is not the point and your post seems rather pointless aside from chest beating.

The point is...one needs to know their limits. If you are new to diving or rusty and you can't recognize that fact for yourself then well, go Darwin.