It is true. The yo-yo you're talking about happens when there is expansion of air in the BC due to the depth changes. Remember, we were talking about a full BC at depth, there's no more expansion as one ascends, therefore the diver will stay negatively buoyant regardless of depth. Of course, as mentioned, there will be some buoyancy changes from the exposure suit (wet or dry) that may or may not be enough to make the diver positive as she ascends. As such, one would have to swim up to the point of neutral buoyancy or to the surface, whichever comes first.
Fatality Off Miami Beach - Florida
- Thread starter DandyDon
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It is true. The yo-yo you're talking about happens when there is expansion of air in the BC due to the depth changes. Remember, we were talking about a full BC at depth, there's no more expansion as one ascends, therefore the diver will stay negatively buoyant regardless of depth. Of course, as mentioned, there will be some buoyancy changes from the exposure suit (wet or dry) that may or may not be enough to make the diver positive as she ascends. As such, one would have to swim up to the point of neutral buoyancy or to the surface, whichever comes first.
So, 130 posts later it's not clear exactly what happened. One common thread amongst these types of threads is that those with a limited range of diving have a limited frame of reference for dive protocols. Just an observation. As an example, DM's in water vs. out of water. Drift vs. station. Entry vs. exit depending on type of boat. I'm not a Florida diver, but I've dived in Florida. Procedures are a little different than what I am used to.
We don't know how much weight she was wearing, so we don't know if she was overweighted or perhaps had difficulty maintaining positive buoyancy with a full BC.
We know she splashed in. We know she didn't immediately join in. If she went back to boat we don't know if she really exited. Would she have taken her fins off to climb the ladder? Would she have handed the fins up? Could she have fallen back in with fins on? Could she have lost her fins before reaching the boat? Did she still have her fins on when doggy paddling to the line?
If she exited the water for some reason, would she be allowed to splash in again and catch up to her buddy? Could she have lost her ill-fitting fins and tried to swim back to the boat. Realizing how hard it is to swim with gear, maybe she took it off to make the swim easier, not realizing she would sink like a rock. Maybe her OW class had weight integrated BC versus the rental gear she was struggling to assemble and it slipped her mind that she would still have the weight belt on.
I don't doubt they rest of her group thought she had aborted the dive. I find it hard to believe that she could have splashed in never descended and go unnoticed by the crew. Others splashed in after her according the sequence presented. If she had exited the water and re-entered, I would again think the crew would have been watching. We are missing a period of time from the timeline. It may be a very short period of time, but some piece is still missing.
Her buddy didn't cause her death. The crew didn't cause her death. Ari, the instructor, didn't cause her death. Her training caused her death. Spare the snarky agency comments, because the acronym doesn't matter. Her training failed her even if it was the least demanding agency. Imagine that the DM jumped in and pulled her back. What about her next dive somewhere more challenging?
Two of the side issues:
1) Instructor duty of care for tag-alongs. I don't have a pat answer. I've experienced it. I don't like it. I brief the tag-alongs to let them know they are just certified divers free to follow me around and that I will be focused on the paying students. It doesn't mean I'm not trying to watch them, too. But, they need to understand that they need to be self-sufficient divers. If they want to pay me to guide them, then that is OK, because I would just no. They need to pay someone else to guide/supervise as I am focused on the students. I don't know how shops/boats work it in FL.
2) As a dive customer who happens to be an instructor (retired). If I'm on the boat, I will splash in with my buddy and camera and do a screaming head first descent and get as far away as possible from everyone else. There's an instructor leading the group and crew on the boat to watch. In this situation, if I saw the troubled diver at the surface I would have yelled at the DM to watch her or I would have paused to observe.
The analogy of the person stepping off the curb is a not particularly accurate. I don't think it would my place nor my inclination to approach someone who isn't in immediate danger or under my supervision to encourage them to get back on the boat. Granted, I have gotten a tap on the shoulder, then having my buddy point to two diver heading off at a 90 degree angle to the group (on a drift dive). I handed off my camera and went after them and dragged them back to the group.
That's a lot of words without black and white answers.
We don't know how much weight she was wearing, so we don't know if she was overweighted or perhaps had difficulty maintaining positive buoyancy with a full BC.
We know she splashed in. We know she didn't immediately join in. If she went back to boat we don't know if she really exited. Would she have taken her fins off to climb the ladder? Would she have handed the fins up? Could she have fallen back in with fins on? Could she have lost her fins before reaching the boat? Did she still have her fins on when doggy paddling to the line?
If she exited the water for some reason, would she be allowed to splash in again and catch up to her buddy? Could she have lost her ill-fitting fins and tried to swim back to the boat. Realizing how hard it is to swim with gear, maybe she took it off to make the swim easier, not realizing she would sink like a rock. Maybe her OW class had weight integrated BC versus the rental gear she was struggling to assemble and it slipped her mind that she would still have the weight belt on.
I don't doubt they rest of her group thought she had aborted the dive. I find it hard to believe that she could have splashed in never descended and go unnoticed by the crew. Others splashed in after her according the sequence presented. If she had exited the water and re-entered, I would again think the crew would have been watching. We are missing a period of time from the timeline. It may be a very short period of time, but some piece is still missing.
Her buddy didn't cause her death. The crew didn't cause her death. Ari, the instructor, didn't cause her death. Her training caused her death. Spare the snarky agency comments, because the acronym doesn't matter. Her training failed her even if it was the least demanding agency. Imagine that the DM jumped in and pulled her back. What about her next dive somewhere more challenging?
Two of the side issues:
1) Instructor duty of care for tag-alongs. I don't have a pat answer. I've experienced it. I don't like it. I brief the tag-alongs to let them know they are just certified divers free to follow me around and that I will be focused on the paying students. It doesn't mean I'm not trying to watch them, too. But, they need to understand that they need to be self-sufficient divers. If they want to pay me to guide them, then that is OK, because I would just no. They need to pay someone else to guide/supervise as I am focused on the students. I don't know how shops/boats work it in FL.
2) As a dive customer who happens to be an instructor (retired). If I'm on the boat, I will splash in with my buddy and camera and do a screaming head first descent and get as far away as possible from everyone else. There's an instructor leading the group and crew on the boat to watch. In this situation, if I saw the troubled diver at the surface I would have yelled at the DM to watch her or I would have paused to observe.
The analogy of the person stepping off the curb is a not particularly accurate. I don't think it would my place nor my inclination to approach someone who isn't in immediate danger or under my supervision to encourage them to get back on the boat. Granted, I have gotten a tap on the shoulder, then having my buddy point to two diver heading off at a 90 degree angle to the group (on a drift dive). I handed off my camera and went after them and dragged them back to the group.
That's a lot of words without black and white answers.
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As I mentioned in post #1...
Whatever other factors may have contributed, that is what killed her. My home bud & I drill on ditching weights the first dive of any trip. If I go alone, I still do. I used to say to ditch on surface, but an accomplish Instructor convinced me here that if you have to ditch below to guarantee getting to the top - do it. They can save you from those injuries better than they can from a full drowning if they can at least find the body quickly.
There has been some speculation as to whether or not she was overweighted. I have some generic thoughts on overweighting and the warm water diver.
I'll start with a far flung analogy. My son recently had a lot of medical problems with his dog, and the vet told him that when Labrador Retrievers get sick, you assume they ate something they shouldn't have until you get evidence to the contrary. Based on my experience, if it is an inexperienced warm water diver has trouble staying/getting to the surface, you assume the diver was overweighted unless you have evidence to the contrary.
Let's review the procedure for doing a weight check to see what I mean.
In a proper weight check, a diver with a completely empty BCD holds a normal breath (not a deep breath) and holds perfectly still--no kicking. That diver should float at eye level, again without kicking and without any air in the BCD. Some people advocate adding some extra weight to allow for the loss of about 4 pounds of air during a dive, but others feel it is not necessary.
Thus, if a diver with (say) a 3mm wet suit has just a little air in the BCD and has to put any work at all into staying at the surface, that diver is overweighted. More importantly, in the case of divers who go OOA, reach the surface, and then cannot stay there despite strenuous kicking because they cannot inflate the BCDs, those divers are severely overweighted. A properly weighted diver with an empty tank should have to work hard to get down, not work hard to stay up.
I'll start with a far flung analogy. My son recently had a lot of medical problems with his dog, and the vet told him that when Labrador Retrievers get sick, you assume they ate something they shouldn't have until you get evidence to the contrary. Based on my experience, if it is an inexperienced warm water diver has trouble staying/getting to the surface, you assume the diver was overweighted unless you have evidence to the contrary.
Let's review the procedure for doing a weight check to see what I mean.
In a proper weight check, a diver with a completely empty BCD holds a normal breath (not a deep breath) and holds perfectly still--no kicking. That diver should float at eye level, again without kicking and without any air in the BCD. Some people advocate adding some extra weight to allow for the loss of about 4 pounds of air during a dive, but others feel it is not necessary.
Thus, if a diver with (say) a 3mm wet suit has just a little air in the BCD and has to put any work at all into staying at the surface, that diver is overweighted. More importantly, in the case of divers who go OOA, reach the surface, and then cannot stay there despite strenuous kicking because they cannot inflate the BCDs, those divers are severely overweighted. A properly weighted diver with an empty tank should have to work hard to get down, not work hard to stay up.
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I know that I may start a firestorm, but... Yes we all believe in the buddy system, but the bottom line is every diver is responsible for THEM SELF. If there is any question about doing a dive, just call the dive! You can't rely on the buddy system to prevent every accident. Maybe some of you would refuse to dive with me, but as much as I will do what I can, I am not going to risk my life to save yours. As an instructor I have a different responsibility to my students, but not to some random "buddy" on a cattle boat. If I pay good money to enjoy a vacation dive it is not my responsibility to look out for weaker divers. (However, I do find myself trying to spot potential problem divers on pleasure dives). To me, as an instructor, things like this happen because dive training has been diluted over the years. I got certified in the 70's, I was a police recovery diver and my training lasted for weeks. I remember I had to make an emergency swimming ascent from 60' with no regulator or air source just to pass my AOW. I am all for helping everyone to share the awesome experience of diving. But is the loss of life worth watering down the training? Dive training needs to recognize that this is a potentially dangerous sport. It is my opinion that training should be more intense. If we scare some potential divers away, so be it. But I think situations like this may not happen.
AndyMcGhee
New
I don't see how this comment would start a "firestorm", all you are referring to is the desirable fact that every diver should primarly be self reliant. This is an important argument and I would like to see more discussion about this (maybe in a different forum). I believe, in order for any buddy system to be effective, each diver should be in complete control of themselves. As an instructor, I drill this into my students heads, but I also insure they know how to properly function as a buddy team. It may seem contradictory to some, however, to be a good buddy, you must first be a good diver. In a second point I would like to make, there are two types of instructors, ones who just carry the card (dime a dozen) and ones who know that the diver they are ultimatly certifying will be great divers after they are past their care. These are the instructors who know that their signature carries it's weight and they have tested their students to the limits.
diverrex
Contributor
What you say about needing to first be a good diver before being a good buddy makes total sense. It was what Dan was saying earlier about two novice divers buddying up, neither is likely to be useful to the other.
Minimally, very minimally, a diver needs to be comfortable in the water floating on the surface. Secondly they should understand all their gear. In this case it seems likely the victim didn't meet either of these. Such a shame when any diver dies, particularly seems bad when they still had air. All you need to do is relax and breathe, then figure out how to get out of whatever problem you find yourself.
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