Fatality Off Miami Beach - Florida

[Abdullah]

Also....there is a whole separate issue if an instructor or skilled diver actually SEES a diver in distress, and purposely chooses to do nothing...that would be another can of worms..how to drag your dependent charges with you, and effect a rescue up on the surface..... But it does not appear that this was going on at all....As far as I can tell, NO divers on the boat or in the water, had any awareness that the Chinese girl was in any trouble....some just thought she had a gear adjustment problem, and that type of thing happens on boats full of new divers all the time...loose leaky masks, fins that hurt or are loose, not enought weight to get down, etc. If I am wrong about anyone being aware of the problem, I would hope someone will correct me here.

I think a learning point can be found in the complacency that develops from organized chaos that often present on cattle boats. The mind becomes numb to the foibles of new divers and blocks out issues that could become a major problem. No one intentionally abandons a diver in distress (unless they are a monster). Instead, they aren't as vigilant as they could be because they see something similar every day. The dive boat I use briefs divers to be alert to the condition of other divers and to promptly alert the dive crew. It's an easy fix to get a lot of sets of eyes looking for Murphy to rear his ugly head.

 

[Divedoggie]

In trying to make some sense of the information and wild commentary in this thread, it seems comparing and contrasting to like experiences could be helpful.

When on vacation and diving for fun, I usually try to dive with advanced dive groups on small charters. Occasionally the only boat going to a preferred destination on a specific day might be a large charter, so for the sake of convenience, I will go ahead and book a trip.

On the large charters, there is always a very thorough briefing, a long list of rules and instructions, and good roll call protocol. There is usually a strict time limit, and the mass of divers are herded along pretty effectively. Experienced and competent divers who can prove their ilk are usually not hassled too much and are allowed to plan and execute their own dives within certain parameters.

During my last few outings on large dive charters, I've noticed an alarming trend where single divers either loosely pair themselves with a buddy, or they plan to be the DM or guide's buddy. In either case, they end up diving solo with neither redundancy nor solo training.

Recently, I was on a boat where 20 divers entered the water for a night dive. My buddy and I had been diving with the charter for a week and the operators were comfortable with our skill and experience. We entered the water ahead of the rest of the group and the two of us navigated our own route around the vast dive site.
60 minutes or so into the dive, it became apparent that we were the last team in the water and we started to make our way back to the mooring line. Suddenly and surprisingly we saw the video lights from the camera of a diver. We swam over to him and he was alone. He made the sign for boat and asked us which direction. As he joined us and we swam back in the direction of the boat, I glanced at his SPG. He was at 400psi, and still had a couple hundred yards and safety stop ahead of him. We decided to do our stop at that point, ascend and then surface swim to the boat. It was a PITA, but likely prevented an ugly situation.

Back on the boat, we asked him who his buddy was, he replied, "the DM."
In a very non threatening and comfortable way, I asked the DM who was leading the other 16 divers, if he had a buddy for the dive, and he said that "Floyd was supposed to follow him." Instead, Floyd purposely ditched the DM and headed out solo to get away from the churning masses.
Back to Floyd diving alone; He said, "that he could see me the whole time."
We couldn't see him the whole time, didn't know he was solo and didn't know he was depending on us. At this point, he and the DM talked about buddy protocol, solo training, and how they would proceed over the next few days.

So what did we learn? How does it apply to the accident in FL?

1. Communication is essential. The victim in FL was faced with a huge language and cultural barrier. Did she understand any of the briefing or ship's rules and protocol? Did she feel alright? Seasick?
Was she depending on a guide or DM? Did she have a buddy? Was she even certified?

2. We need to observe fellow divers and if we don't help directly, we should immediately alert one of the working professionals and express concerns. It seems, even in the convoluted variations of the FL accident accounts, one of the common observations was that the lady was in trouble. Either disorganized, having trouble setting up kit, dog paddling on surface with no reg in mouth and mask on forehead, trying to climb back onto the boat, and being separated from or having no buddy....

The elephant in the room, is that no one said or did anything until it was too late!

 

[tkaelin]

There are a number of interesting threads contained within this thread. I am particularly interested in the question/issue raised about what does the diver on a boat say or do when they see someone who doesn't seem quite right and they can not seem quite right for a number of reasons. What have they said or not said on the boat ride out, what shape do they seem to be in, what does their gear look like, how have they geared up, did they listen to the briefing. You have seen the signs. The interesting question is what do you do. Do you ignore them, do you talk to them, do you mentioned it to the crew. Anyone who has been diving for a while has encountered this situation more than once. I am guessing we all have done all of the above, ignore, talk or mention, depending upon the particular circumstances presented. No response is necessarily right or wrong without knowing the full details and I suspect that even knowing the full details without actually being there to see and experience first hand what was actually going on, it will be hard to judge fairly and pass judgment.

From my training and experience, I tend to observe others on a boat and make note of certain comments, behavior, equipment and how they gear up. I believe most experienced divers do this to some degree or another. Many times you can tell the diver that is nervous and anxious, the diver that is going to pay attention and the diver who will likely do his own thing despite the briefing. In the water I do the same. If we are following a wall at depth against current lead by a DM, I tend to make mental note of where other divers are. Is there a group deeper, above, behind, ahead. If we make a timed turn around with the DM, I will do the same. While I feel ultimately responsible for myself and my buddy, I cannot help but to look and see what is going on around me and with others. If someone is in trouble and I can help I help. If someone looks like they are going to be trouble, I may make mental note and depending upon the situation may have a conversation with the diver beforehand, may have a conversation with the DM/Crew or attempt to signal the diver or DM underwater. All good DMs/Crew and all good experienced divers do the same, again to one degree to another.

I think as experienced divers we all share this responsibility.

 

[AndyMcGhee]

Returning to the incident itself, the victim was found with her weights still on. Knowing the operation which rented her the gear, she had a weight belt and not an integrated B.C.D. If this diver was cetified (which seems to be speculative in this thread) she could have very well been trained on an integrated B.C.D. and had never even wore a weight belt until this incident. The standards for removing and replacing weights in a O/W class depend on the gear being used for training. Now this is just theory, but it could be a wise move for certification agencies to require all methods of weight removal a skill mastery standard rather than just either/or. You can show a picture of a weight belt in any textbook but that doesn't make it a skill. Panic can make, anyone no matter how experienced, make very radical desicions. No matter how much speculation we put on the events leading up to the victims demise, the one fact we know is that she had her weights still attatched. Further, this is not isolated to just this incident, a brief skim of Diver's Alert Network's annual dive reports have quite a number of case studies with victims found still with weights on. To rap this up, I feel that a reexamination of this particular standard could help prevent more cases such as this one.

 

[danvolker]

Returning to the incident itself, the victim was found with her weights still on. Knowing the operation which rented her the gear, she had a weight belt and not an integrated B.C.D. If this diver was cetified (which seems to be speculative in this thread) she could have very well been trained on an integrated B.C.D. and had never even wore a weight belt until this incident. The standards for removing and replacing weights in a O/W class depend on the gear being used for training. Now this is just theory, but it could be a wise move for certification agencies to require all methods of weight removal a skill mastery standard rather than just either/or. You can show a picture of a weight belt in any textbook but that doesn't make it a skill. Panic can make, anyone no matter how experienced, make very radical desicions. No matter how much speculation we put on the events leading up to the victims demise, the one fact we know is that she had her weights still attatched. Further, this is not isolated to just this incident, a brief skim of Diver's Alert Network's annual dive reports have quite a number of case studies with victims found still with weights on. To rap this up, I feel that a reexamination of this particular standard could help prevent more cases such as this one.

I totally agree.....let's remove every thing else from the issue..no discussion of the crew or the buddy, or Ari...just a diver at the surface.

One of my pet peeves for years has been how many divers get certified--slip through the cracks, without the ability to survive in a swimming pool by them self for a half hour.
For all practical purposes, this was a big swimming pool, and she was on the surface. How can major alarms not go off in our heads about the critical nature of 100% of certified divers having sufficient skills in watermanship, that they could all handle themselves alone on the surface. That they would all know their gear to the extent that they could use their BC, mask and fins to ensure their own safety. That she died minus the flotation of the BC, but still was wearing a weight belt is a horrifying picture to me. I think we can imagine a few ways this could have happened, and none of them SHOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE!

 

[diverrex]

As for alarms going off you have to include the state of certification that allows minimally trained divers. But perhaps her training was adequate but when was it? Certification is for life as it stands now. Maybe she had done little diving in recent years. I applaud any shop/charter that asks divers about their experience, when certified, how many lifetime dives, when was the last dive, etc. But besides just asking they need to act on it, like those that may require a refresher or DM at added cost for anyone not diving in the past 12 months. Or something similar.

A problem I see is that group of divers that is minimally qualified but functional diving in the Caribbean in very benign conditions with a DM guide. Then they go somewhere like Florida which seems very similar but the water is a little rougher and there is no in-water DM. It sometimes doesn't take much to make the situation much more difficult for some. By the limited accounts in this thread the victim appears to be someone that should only have been diving under the direct supervision of a DM/instructor. How we stop certified divers from diving unsupervised I do not know. How did 30 some divers and boat crew not see this in the victim I am not sure but suspect maybe some did but figured it was someone else's problem. How none of the divers or boat crew saw this woman slip beneath the surface without a BC baffles me unless she removed the BC underwater in panic.

 

[danvolker]

Remember back in the old days, when getting certified meant you had to do well at "ditch and don", as well as be able to do the survival float for a very long time, and do this effortlessly? This was in addition to showcasing real watermanship skills, and in performing all the scuba skills at a proficient level....

I don't think ditch and don happens any more, and maybe it should. I also think every diver should be able to snorkel on the surface for hours without effort....to the extent that they are absolutely self reliant. and again, this is no longer an agency practice to promote snorkeling skills. Marketing to the "many" has caused a form of de-evolution in training minimums.
However, almost every instructor I know "could" add a specialty course on snorkeling and add ditch and don as well...and suggest this specialty to every single student( except one that is already a skilled freediver--the one percent

 

[tkaelin]

Danvolker, that could be another thread as well. Certified by the YMCA in the 70s. It was night after night of laps with and without full gear, ditch and dons and buddy tows. I was on a trip last year with my wife and teens. All divers. While gearing up the DM came over and told one of my kids while gearing up that there was no need for a snorkel on dive. Fortunately my kids were trained better than that.

 

[danvolker]

A snorkel is an amazing safety device.....for an anchor diving scenario, where getting blown off the boat is a real possibility, by just having a snorkel any diver SHOULD be able to swim comfortably for hours, and either just entertain themselves as they snorkel along waiting for a boat pickup, or, until they reach shore if they are left alone long enough to get to it. Even for drift diving, where the boat will come to us, a snorkel rolled up in your pocket, means even if some nearly impossible scenario occurs and you are left, you can swim back to shore--or swim for many, many hours without even the need of a BC. You don't require the flotation of a BC, so even a gear failure like the BC having a leak, is irrelevant.

We are talking $20 for a good Scubapro straight J snorkel, just a little more for a version that will fold up. How can a new diver not have one of these, or be trained to use it?

---------- Post added February 27th, 2013 at 08:25 PM ----------

As I think about everything discussed so far, I am thinking that NO CHARTER BOAT should ever have to be responsible for a diver that can not swim, or safely remain on the surface for half an hour or so--Each diver needs to be able to demonstrate a comfortable ease in the water. This is one of the things that the C-Card needs to signify!

 

[ForScubaPurposesOnly]

I don't see how any of us here should be trying to "put this" on Ari. The information that has been posted so far does not indicate this, and SPECULATING that a death was caused by Ari will likely cause problems for her with PADI....Just exactly as any of us SPECULATING that somehow the boat did something wrong, could end their business--something I don't want on me, and I doubt most of the others here want either....If we actually KNEW something we could speculate and not care about the consequences--but we don't. One of the other people on the boat told dj that the Chinese girl( who died) had gone back to the ladder, and was just holding on to it, and adjusting gear for a while.....during which time Ari and her group descended and left the area.
Maybe this is true, maybe it is conflicting with another account. The police will be the ones to determine this.
I know NOTHING about this boat, so IF I had made any suggestion before that put blame on them, I would apologize-- If I learn what happened a week from now, and think either the boat or Ari is to blame, then I will play the blame game, THEN. Not now.
Similarly, disparaging Ari for being a Nudibranch hunter is not relevant to the accident. I would also say that if ANY instructor is doing a Refresher course DIVE on a charter boat with a student, and some divers say to the student that they want to follow ( I believe this is what the surviving girl did--just tell the student that they would likely follow--they had to follow someone) , and one of this "following buddy team" ends up staying on the ladder of the dive boat while the group descends and begins it's dive, then this diver on the ladder, is not in the group--she elected OUT if it. If this storyline is true, then suggesting anything negligent about Ari, is Defamation and more important, not morally sound behavior.

If someone wants to start another thread and discuss Nudibranch hunting and collecting, I think we can all agree this is an entirely separate matter from this thread, and has no place in assignment of blame or accident analysis for what is at hand.

Dan,
1)I am not trying to "put this on Ari". I am the one who first said we cannot hold Ari responsible for a diver if she was not hired by this girl to guide her.
2)I am not SPECULATING, in case you missed that post above, I was on the dive boat for the incident and I dive with that company frequently
3)I don't see how that quote of my post has anything to do with anything you were ranting about. All I said was that the theory that she fell off the boat wearing only her weight belt was not really plausible. (that has NOTHING to do with Ari and suggests no theories about whether or not the diver was in Ari's care)
4) Once again, I am not trying to blame Ari for the incident and was not the person that suggested anything about her collecting nudibranchs

I apologize if I offended anyone in my previous posts, it has not been my intention to do so. My comments about Ari were only that if she has been doing the things mentioned here (which I know are from a credible source) something should be done to prevent someone from getting hurt. Those comments are not in reference to this incident and were part of a tangent we all seemed to go off on somehow.