Failed to get Scuba cert. ? ? ? ?

[H2Andy]

I think OW instructors should do drills like the above. Knock the mask off without warning or sneek up and shut off the air Make you deal with it in a controled situation so when it happens in real life it just a "been there done that" kind of thing.

many advanced diving classes do involve simulated failures as you describe.
however, they tend to be geared towards more advanced divers.

while this would be a good idea, it runs into the current philosophy of the training
agencies, which is that diving is a safe, easy sport that anyone can do. ripping
off masks and turning off air is going to turn off a lot of people from diving, and that
means less equipment sales, which is how local dive shops survive...

so... probably not going to happen at the OW level any time soon

 

[wolf eel]

japan-diver You need to read some accident reports. Have seen quite a few where divers died because they could not recover a reg. Also have had a few classes where reg recovery was one of the more difficult skills for some students to master, so I would say not every diver can do it.

Hi I just re read this and I do not understand. Is there really that many people that die because they could not recover their reg ? why does this happen ? do they not dive with a octo or something ? we are talking about rec divers right ? I thought you had said in practice the first time I read your reply.

Still the instructor was task loading the students and then not allowing them to go over it a couple of times as it sounds anyhow. I have never said that training is bad or that if you can not recover your reg or remove and replace and clear your mask you should pass. Also I have never been talking about a flooded mask that is not the drill, removal and replace of and then clear and it is not done all that often in cold water divers at least with those I have dove with.

 

[jbd]

.....ripping off masks and turning off air is going to turn off a lot of people from diving,......

Not if its done properly. I found that it increases the students confidence and they actually find it to be enjoyable and fun.
Of cousre this can't really be done effectively in the two or three day wonder courses.

 

[jbd]

That is understood but to say the person has to redo the course is also not right.

Indeed, simply having trouble with any particular skill is no reason to re-do the entire class. You run into that problem when people are on real strict time tables in which each skill must be learned by a certain date and or time. Its important to schedule sufficient time for most people to learn the skills needed. Some will actually learn the stuff faster than others--turn them loose with an assistant and let them practice while the instructor focuses on the remiander for the group. As each person "gets it" send them to join the assistant. This way the instructor can now focus individaully on the one person whoo is having trouble "getting it". This is usually sufficient to keep the overall schedule on track. Even if the person having trouble still doesn't have it nailed the iinstructor can usually make a judgement call to move on to other skills for the remainder of the pool time and arrange for some "private" time for the person having trouble. There's always a way to help someone master the skills without taking up an inordinate amount of extra time.

This is just a question. How many have been sued ? Again this is a sport not a commercial person here and it is common for the LDS to allow a student to sit in on a class. Look at what they had to do that in its self is different then the O/W course I took. Mine was more like the other guys, gear hit the bottom and we had to put it all on and take it off in open water. We never turned our tanks off or anything. But if a person can do all the other requirements then it is only a matter of extra time and then they could clear the mask as well.

Its hard to say how many have been sued; believe me I have tried to nail down this number.

In the case of mask clearing, it is only a matter of some extra time. IMO though mask clearing should be mastered before moving on to things like removing the regulator or turning off the air etc,etc. If a person is terror struck with mask skills, they will lack the confidence to safely deal with any form of OOA situation.

 

[kevink]

The first couple times you are unable to clear a mask it is practice, after that more than likely it is indicative of underlying fear or lack of comfort underwater.

There is a reason these skills build on themselves - partial, full, mask removal, no mask swim. If you are not comfortable clearing your mask, you will never be able to swim without a mask. If you are not comfortable clearing your mask, you will never be a diver, period, end of story. You don't buy a cert., your instructors name is on the back of your c-card for life, along with a good bit of residual liability.

Basically if you are not comfortable clearing your mask, or recovering a reg, you CAN'T be a safe diver (unless you are in 3' of water).

 

[JustAddWater]

In accordance with the federal government's mandate of No Scuba Student Left Behind, the instructor's credentials should be audited to ensure that he/she is "highly qualified". Furthermore, an inquiry should be made examining total scuba school performance, placing the results on a norm reference curve. Should student success fall below the 50th percentile nationally, in comparison to similar schools, the scuba school should be placed on three years probation. Failure to raise scuba student success 5% each year within the probationary period will result in the government's takeover of that school. All scuba students are capable of learning. and none should be left behind.
Pun Intended

 

[H2Andy]

Should student success fall below the 50th percentile nationally, in comparison to similar schools, the scuba school should be placed on three years probation.

but... wait.... doesn't that mean that on any given year, half the scuba schools
are going to be below the 50th percentile nationally?

so.... hmmm....

:33:

does that mean the government is going to take over schools until the bottom
50% are all run by the government?

 

[kevink]

Thank goodness for the bottom 50%, or I wouldn't be above average.

If you can't clear your mask, or take your hand off your regulator, you are never getting out of the shallow end of a pool.

 

[wolf eel]

jbd
In the case of mask clearing, it is only a matter of some extra time. IMO though mask clearing should be mastered before moving on to things like removing the regulator or turning off the air etc,etc. If a person is terror struck with mask skills, they will lack the confidence to safely deal with any form of OOA situation.

Is it shear terror or a just not being able to do the drill ? because of not understanding ? I again need to stress that I agree completley that if you can not do the drills you should not get your card. But in a sport setting all I am saying it is in our best interest to be able to get people diving plain and simple. Skiing is a killer sport and nobody would ski if they knew they could crash and die or be crashed into and die. How those people ever drive on the highway is beyond me.

 

[jbd]

Sounds like the instructor was task loading a new student with stuff you would never do as a rec diver. And no you would not. How often do you turn your tank off bleed out air turn tank on and then clear your mask ? Did all of that happen when they had there masks off ? If you are so screwed that you have to remove everything and then try to find your mask and clear it good luck even a very calm diver would have troubles in the water doing all that..

A couple of years back a woman died after she had gotten tangled in kelp. If I recall correctly she was only five or six feet underwater. The two divers with her couldn't help her since she managed to knock off their masks or something along those lines and may have knocked the regulator out of their mouth. She also lost her regulator and didn't recover it.

How different might the outcome have been if she had been able to recover and replace her regulator, ditch her weight belt and then remove her BC which would have let her surface.

How different might the outcome have been if the other divers had been able to deal with being without a mask while underwater and being able to share air because they remained in control?

We teach people to dive in shallow swimming pools, but once certified they dive in real environments that pose many different kinds of risks. A good instructor will teach his or her students to deal with as many what if scenario's as is reasonable.