Failed to get Scuba cert. ? ? ? ?

[Goose75]

A friend of mine had 3 people fail his OW class. 2 failed the swim and one was just in constant panic mode. My friend had some choice words about the ones who wore themselves out during the swim and didn't float to rest, but the instructor treated them well. The instructor (also my old instructor) has a policy that you can keep coming back with his scheduled classes as many times as you wish until you can pass the skills. He will take some extra time with you before and after class to help. I bet he would charge extra if he had to specially schedule the pool for one student but otherwise he considers it part of your original fee.

 

[t0by]

(speaking from PADI requirements) These skills are all required for open water certification, except "Turn off air from tank" which should be performed by the instructor. i.e. student doesn't turn off their own or anyone else's air.

But. These skills should not be combined into one exercise for an open water course.

Did he really do this with a pool full of beginners??
What was the certifying agency??

Part 2

It turns out, that during the confined water the instructor, had them remove and replace all equipment, went like this

Remove all equip.
Remove mask
Turn off air from tank
Bleed air out
Turn air back on
Clear mask
Replace equip.

Done

 

[Lil' Irish Temper]

(speaking from PADI requirements) These skills are all required for open water certification, except "Turn off air from tank" which should be performed by the instructor. i.e. student doesn't turn off their own or anyone else's air.

But. These skills should not be combined into one exercise for an open water course.

Did he really do this with a pool full of beginners??
What was the certifying agency??

NAUI, and I took my O/W with the same guy, he owns the dive shop, and it's him and his wife that teach the class - he has you do everything just like I said but it's not on the test. Just the pool. I took the course every Wed. for 6 weeks and he didn't do it to us until the last 2 pool class. Far as I know he just wanted us to get used to working underwater. BUT I know he talks down to people. He's Ex-Navy diver, wadda expect.

 

[wolf eel]

Sounds like the instructor was task loading a new student with stuff you would never do as a rec diver. And no you would not. How often do you turn your tank off bleed out air turn tank on and then clear your mask ? Did all of that happen when they had there masks off ? If you are so screwed that you have to remove everything and then try to find your mask and clear it good luck even a very calm diver would have troubles in the water doing all that..

 

[Divesherpa]

The first choice would to give the person as much pool time as necessary until either they get it or realize they will never get it. Perhaps I spoke in haste is suggesting the person should get their money back. If the student is willing to try again and again, I don't think there should be additional charges. If it turns out the person won't ever pass, then they should be held financially responsible for whatever part of the course they took and the materials involved. Not everything is refunded (the book is now used, and one or two classes have been given and some pool time), but unless the dive shop is willing to go to that extra distance with a "problem student", then they haven't lived up to their end of the bargain.

At what point has the instructor done enough? One try? Two? Five? Unless the student says "enough" then I belive there is an obligation of the instructor/dive shop to work with the student until he/she gets it. That is the risk a business takes. Not every sale or service goes as planned. And you plan for the times when things don't go your way. The contract between student and instructor doesn't say, "until instructors' hour is up".

As an instructor, I could not disagree with you more. Purchasing a class is purchasing training, not certification (as your timer implies). I have spent many extra hours with students outside of the normal class schedule. Also, I only teach individual classes.
With these two things in mind, I have withheld OW certification from two people (granting PADI Scuba Diver status instead).

I am willing to spend extra time with students, but my time isn't endless. I have other things to do besides repeat a task until I'm blue in the face. Diving isn't very difficult. I try to act as a guide more than an instructor, but if you don't get it, you should find another hobby.

If your jobs called and said you need to work weekends for the next few months, and, by the way, you won't get paid for it, what would you say? Most instructors teach for the pleasure of teaching (with the exception of the bulk class instructors) and have a regular life. Teaching diving is a way to share the underwater world with people and make friends. Instructors usually don't drive Carrera's or Range Rovers. I don't even break even from my own expenses. To think that their time is unlimited and that you are PURCHASING CERTIFICATION is Bull POOP. You purchase training, either you get it, or you don't.

Cheers,
Jamie

MSDT 176787

 

[diversteve]

Part 2

It turns out, that during the confined water the instructor, had them remove and replace all equipment, went like this

Remove all equip.
Remove mask
Turn off air from tank
Bleed air out
Turn air back on
Clear mask
Replace equip.

Done

My LDS doesn't do this anymore, but when I was going through certification, my instructor had everybody prep their gear on the edge of the 15' pool and then with our backs turned he threw it all in the water. Regs on tanks, but everything else was scattered all over. Then we all had to jump in, find our gear, and put it all on before we came up. 8/10 people were able to do this, mostly by cooperating to help each other find/clear anyone's mask and then share air while we sorted everything out. Probably the first time I was glad I had a W/I BC.

Not surprisingly one guy who failed to complete this was an immature kid(late teens) who just grabbed at everything in sight until he had to surface. Even though we tried to help him find his stuff. He later panicked during our OOA open water checkout and came up white-faced wrapped around our instructor, who grabbed him on the way up. More surprisingly, they gave him his card, I wouldn't have, he had the maturity of a 12yr old.

Also she brought a different BC, fins, regulator to class everytime, I guess she yelled at the instructor in front of everybody, that she was trying to see what worked for her.

This seems like a bad idea, she already(obviously) had enough task loading trying to get through the basic skills. I wonder if the reason she yelled at him was because he suggested something similar...

 

[jbd]

At what point has the instructor done enough? One try? Two? Five? Unless the student says "enough" then I belive there is an obligation of the instructor/dive shop to work with the student until he/she gets it. That is the risk a business takes. Not every sale or service goes as planned. And you plan for the times when things don't go your way. The contract between student and instructor doesn't say, "until instructors' hour is up".

Have you ever tried this with a university? Or maybe with a flight instructor? Maybe skating instructors give their time away :06:

Pool time generally is not cheap and can be very hard to come by. Anyone renting a pool can not justify the expense for just one person in most cases. People who teach have other things to do with their time off, just like everyone else.

The contract between student and instructor also doesn't say "until death do us part."

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

It isn't common but students do fail scuba. Usually it's someone who has been pushed into the activity by someone else.

I have put some students on the "extended" program, one such student took 15 pool sessions before I felt they were ready for open water. I have suggested to a couple of my students that they extend the amount of pool sessions and they've walked away, so they of course failed.

 

[Green_Manelishi]

I've had students who were absolutley undeniably<sp?>, not meant for the water, and should simply take up golf.
I'm sure some folk here will say that I just needed to spend a bit more time with the student,
Scubafreak

The fact is that SCUBA is NOT for everyone, nor is every type of SCUBA diving for every diver. People need to work within their, dare I say it, limitations.

 

[wolf eel]

I think it is the norm for the local dive shop to allow you to take another course or sit in with a new class. The reason for this is so you can get what ever it is your missing and be even more comfortable in the water with the gear on. It makes sense considering they are not trying to learn how to fly a plane or anything kinda like skiing or jumping they allow you to sit in and learn what you did not understand. It is for sport not work. If you are taking a CD course and fail it thats a fail and even then they help you out with whatever it is.
Please don't get me wrong if they should not be in the water then they should fail but only on the mask thing come on. It would be kinda funny I would love to see how many do it on a regular bases (remove mask) ? If not a new student could be more able then a vet diver.
Cheers