Failed to get Scuba cert. ? ? ? ?

[ScubaFreak]

I'd love to see how many divers remove their regulator and toss it back over their shoulder on a regular basis

Ever have your Reg kicked out of your mouth by mistake? I have, and what happened it? It free flowed. Where did it go when it free flowed? Over my shoulder.

Reg recovery is a vital skill, just as vital as mask clearing. No argument in my opinion.

I have a question though- maybe JBD can answer, the skill that NAUI instructor required his class to do- is that curriculum for the OW Course? I know the NAUI instructors can add skills / knowledge that they feel important or useful..but is that going overboard a little?

SF

 

[del_mo]

As an instructor, I could not disagree with you more. Purchasing a class is purchasing training, not certification (as your timer implies). I have spent many extra hours with students outside of the normal class schedule. Also, I only teach individual classes.
With these two things in mind, I have withheld OW certification from two people (granting PADI Scuba Diver status instead).

I am willing to spend extra time with students, but my time isn't endless. I have other things to do besides repeat a task until I'm blue in the face. Diving isn't very difficult. I try to act as a guide more than an instructor, but if you don't get it, you should find another hobby.

If your jobs called and said you need to work weekends for the next few months, and, by the way, you won't get paid for it, what would you say? Most instructors teach for the pleasure of teaching (with the exception of the bulk class instructors) and have a regular life. Teaching diving is a way to share the underwater world with people and make friends. Instructors usually don't drive Carrera's or Range Rovers. I don't even break even from my own expenses. To think that their time is unlimited and that you are PURCHASING CERTIFICATION is Bull POOP. You purchase training, either you get it, or you don't.

Cheers,
Jamie

MSDT 176787

I actually think we are agreeing. I'm not suggesting the student move in with the instructor until he/she gets it. But additional time (as you say you offer your students) is all I'd be asking for. If you can't complete a skill during one session, and the instructor has the pool rented for the following day, why not let the troubled student come back for an extra day to practice.

I NEVER suggested you are purchasing certification. But to give up early on a student isn't necessarily fair, especially when they are having trouble with a relatively simple skill.

 

[Sideband]

Ever have your Reg kicked out of your mouth by mistake? I have, and what happened it? It free flowed. Where did it go when it free flowed? Over my shoulder.

Reg recovery is a vital skill, just as vital as mask clearing. No argument in my opinion.

SF

And that is why I added the disclaimer about ~I know there is more to the skill and that's my point.~ I wasn't taking the position that either skill is bad. I was saying the opposite.

Joe

 

[Bison]

Hmmmm....I have a different take on this issue. My wife failed her "clearing the mask" skill. She got cold before she figured it out. She got a second chance at learning to clear her mask with a DM, not an instuctor, until she figured it out. Took about 10 minutes more and she was comfortable with it.

If the person mentioned above was failed, and her money returned I would have no problem. Then she can (if the dive shop would allow) try again as my wife did.

I had a similar experience with my wife. A woman who is physicaly active and enjoys the water. She has always been interested in scuba, just not the time. Finally we made time since we were planning our honymoon to Cozumel and she liked the idea of sharing my enjoyment with diving. So she decided to join a class with her friend at a local dive shop. Seemed like a nice deal since it included some of her gear. I did not become involved with her training since I knew I loved diving and I wanted her to do the class/bookwork and water skills on her own. During the end of her class she was having a difficult time with her mask skills. She came to me and asked what I thought and we talked about the skills needed. If she couldn't do it then she should reconsider the sport. I felt bad about our honymoon but I would feel worse if she messed up at depth and was injured due to lack of a particualr skill. Oh well, safety first I told myself. During a conversation with my local dive club they asked about the gear they gave her as a "Good Deal" for signing up with their school. I looked at the gear and I noticed the dive mask, small, small purge valve, low volume, no manufacturer name on it..Hmmm Since I hadn't been in the H2O for a couple months I decided to jump in my old dive shops pool before we left for Cozumel. I had my future wife at that time snorkel and play around in the pool with her mask while I practiced skills in the deep end of the pool. This is when I noticed the problem, the mask would not purge, it was too small on her and when the purge valve worked it wouldn't clear the entire mask. In other words a Piece of crap mask was causing her problem. I went to my old dive shop and paid for a properly fitting mask and a descent purge valve since she wanted one. My attitude is buy once and buy right to avoid problems. The following day in her class she did her mask skills without a problem. I was curious as to why this wasn't identified early on since mask fitting is done early on before you even go into the pool. I was told her initial instructor that started the class was no longer teaching the course due to poor performance. Not sure what the deal was with the shop's instructors but the shop dida great job training her. She did her check out dives in Cozumel and passed with flying colors. More important she feels comfortable in the water and enjoys the diving. Was it an instructor issue I don't know and probably it was more to an improperly fitting cheap mask.

 

[Divesherpa]

I actually think we are agreeing. I'm not suggesting the student move in with the instructor until he/she gets it. But additional time (as you say you offer your students) is all I'd be asking for. If you can't complete a skill during one session, and the instructor has the pool rented for the following day, why not let the troubled student come back for an extra day to practice.

I NEVER suggested you are purchasing certification. But to give up early on a student isn't necessarily fair, especially when they are having trouble with a relatively simple skill.

We are definately not in agreement. You clearly state your beliefs. You state that the instructor should spend as much time as it takes. This suggests purchasing certification.
I interview students before I accept them. They are also given a chance to interview me as well.

Diving is meant to be a fun activity. I have heard of many students who didn't enjoy their training. Most of the $99 OW classes have an attrition rate that is staggering. The skills mentioned in this thread as a reason for failure are offered in my OW classes on an optional basis. I also have everyone do 7 pool sessions. Two of these sessions are nothing more than swimming through weighted hoop la hoops anchored to the bottom or playing with underwater toys. This builds buoyancy skills and comfort.
Most of the divers that I regularly dive with now were past students. These dives are mostly conducted in the stage cave diving and deep cave diving realms.

If a student were to tell me the things that you posted earlier, I would refund their money and recommend a different diving approach. Nothing personal, we simply disagree.

I allow students the opportunity to do ditch and don's in their OW class. Many have accepted this highly supervised option. I feel that the student gains a much higher level of comfort and understanding of UW prioritization: Gas, vision, buoyancy, and propulsion. I still maintain contact with more than 70% of past students, so they must be happy with the skills they learn.

The OW class is not structured for any level of in-depth understanding of the environment. This is a travesty, but is easily remedied with extra time. The time also comes with extra cost. Is it worth the time? Yes!! If a student doesn't get it, should I waste both of our times? No!!

Cheers,
Jamie

 

[durian]

I learned how to clear my mask in my OW course. Months later I did my AOW with a different school. On a deep dive my mask kept filling with water and I had to keep clearning it. There was very poor visibility; maybe 4 meters. My Instructor saw that I was struggling with my mask. It was a big hassle but did not stop me from fulfilling the dive requirements. When we surfaced it was decided that the mask was ill-fitting. Basically the DM's brought the gear freom the shop and Imet them at the pier as they had various shops and not all had rented gear. Everything was fine except the mask. I never panicked, it was just a hassle.

My Instructor told me that he was impressed that I hung in there and was able to get on with it.

I wonder if she had an ill-fitted mask and panicked a bit. It is easy to get disoriented when we try to hard. Often if we just relax a bit things become simpler and far more manageable. I hope she will try again.

 

[neil]

I have a question though- maybe JBD can answer, the skill that NAUI instructor required his class to do- is that curriculum for the OW Course? I know the NAUI instructors can add skills / knowledge that they feel important or useful..but is that going overboard a little?
SF

No, that particular skill is not a required one (back in the day it was). A NAUI instructor is encouraged to exceed standards, but judgement must be used in adding skills, especially the "confidence" skills such as the gear removal described. That instructor may have thought it was a useful or fun thing to try, but the student wasn't ready for it. In that case, it may have been going overboard.

 

[Diversauras]

Maybe the "not clearing the mask" was just the tip of the iceberg and the identifiable problem in a long list of them. Maybe she couldn't clear her mask and held he breath and bolted from 20 feet. A person that doesn't like water on their face or can't stand a flooded mask can be dangerous to themselves.

 

[jbd]

I have a question though- maybe JBD can answer, the skill that NAUI instructor required his class to do- is that curriculum for the OW Course? I know the NAUI instructors can add skills / knowledge that they feel important or useful..but is that going overboard a little?

SF

ScubaFreak,
Sorry I missed your question. As noted by Neil in post #77 that is not a NAUI Standard requirement. I have my students do something similar all though its not done in any specific order and I don't have them turn off their air although I may turn off their air during the exercise we are doing. I turn off their air so I know its off(in other words I'm prepared to donate) and have instant access to turning it on again. I also require that their buddy be fully aware of what is going on and is prepared to donate as well.

The scenario that I work with is that I simulate an entanglement for one of the students. They then take the necessary steps to deal with removing the entanglement. Generally I will acknowledge removal of the entanglement but at times I will indicate that they were not sucessful which now means they must remove their scuba unit(tank and BC) while maintaining neutral buoyancy. During this time I may flood their mask for them or remove their regulator or turn off their air. They may get all of this in very short order once they are comfortable dealing with things one at a time, then two in close order then three and then maybe four(I pull one or both fins off). They do this while maintaining buoyancy control within a couple of feet and with out touching the bottom or breaking the surface.

All of this is gradually worked up to over the six pool sessions.

From the post about what the skill was for the person in question it seems like the instructor made this a one time, do this, pass or fail kind of scenario. Many people would find that intimidating.

I do think that Diversaurus is right about there being more to this than just the mask clearing with this particular student.

 

[bgi]

I certainly don't mean to speak for other instructors but here's how I work. I will not give up on a student that is determined to get certified. I do not charge extra (except pool rental) because it may take a little more of my time. If you need (want) to come into another clas so be it. There are also times when I'll have a DM work with them on certain skills as they may click with the assistant where they don't understand a thing I'm teaching (exagerated).

I would also invite certified students to join my classes and/or pool sessions if they want. I just ask that they not interfer with the students.

This is great attitude. It's the attitude I see often in our local shops. It wins loyal customers, doesn't take a lot of extra instructor time, and covers the students that need some more pool time. Granted, if you're a 1-on-1 instructor, this isn't practical.

Good on ya, Mate!