Failed to get Scuba cert. ? ? ? ?

[jbd]

Please don't get me wrong if they should not be in the water then they should fail but only on the mask thing come on. It would be kinda funny I would love to see how many do it on a regular bases (remove mask) ? If not a new student could be more able then a vet diver.
Cheers

I would not pass a student, who with, reasonably sufficient time to learn and master mask clearing(including removal and replace underwater) couldn't perform the task in a calm and relaxed manner.

The problem is two sided with this overall issue. On one side you have customers who want to learn to dive at the very last minute so they can dive on their vacation/holiday. On the other side you have a dive industry who is doing everything possible to accomodate these people 1.) so they can go on vacation and dive and 2.) so the dive industry can sell gear. What you end up with by default is no reasonably sufficient time to learn and master the skills required in diving. This leads to people being UW who will panic and bolt for the surface with a high risk of injuring themselves. If they do get injured, they sue the instructor. Why would an instructor want that kind of headache :06:

BTW, I have had students wonder why they bothered to buy a mask for the class, since they seem to never have it on UW or its full of water

 

[wolf eel]

jbd I would not pass a student, who with, reasonably sufficient time to learn and master mask clearing(including removal and replace underwater) couldn't perform the task in a calm and relaxed manner.

That is understood but to say the person has to redo the course is also not right.

This leads to people being UW who will panic and bolt for the surface with a high risk of injuring themselves. If they do get injured, they sue the instructor. Why would an instructor want that kind of headache :06:

This is just a question. How many have been sued ? Again this is a sport not a commercial person here and it is common for the LDS to allow a student to sit in on a class. Look at what they had to do that in its self is different then the O/W course I took. Mine was more like the other guys, gear hit the bottom and we had to put it all on and take it off in open water. We never turned our tanks off or anything. But if a person can do all the other requirements then it is only a matter of extra time and then they could clear the mask as well.

 

[Sideband]

Please don't get me wrong if they should not be in the water then they should fail but only on the mask thing come on. It would be kinda funny I would love to see how many do it on a regular bases (remove mask) ? If not a new student could be more able then a vet diver.
Cheers

So you are saying the mask skill should no longer be a requirement for certification for anyone? I always thought the lost reg. recovery skill to be kind of silly. I'd love to see how many divers remove their regulator and toss it back over their shoulder on a regular basis. Should we let someone slide on that one? I know there is more to the skill than I described, but that is my point.
To help satisy your curiosity a bit, I flood and clear my mask on almost every dive and do a complete removal on every second or third dive. I hate the skill but do it regularly because I dislike doing it. I know another diver that on every dive he decends, removes his mask and blows his nose. A female diver I know smiles so much when she's diving that her mask is constantly flooding or flooded.

I took guitar lessons and I never did learn to play. I don't feel that it's my teachers fault and I bet he'd be a bit surprised if I went back and asked for my money back. He'd probably be just as agreeable to the idea of giving me free lessons until I did learn to play.
I believe when I signed up the DS promised that they would teach me everything I needed to know to pass their agencies tests. If they teach it and I don't learn it or can't perform it then I have not upheld my end of the agreement. My LDS invites everyone to retake a classroom or pool session if they need it. They also have a great deal imo on refresher courses if you certified through them. I think students give up before most instructors do.
Joe

 

[RP Diver]

It turns out, that during the confined water the instructor, had them remove and replace all equipment, went like this

Remove all equip.
Remove mask
Turn off air from tank
Bleed air out
Turn air back on
Clear mask
Replace equip.

Done

From what I understand, she didn't have any trouble clearing until this was thrown into the mix.

She had a 5 or 7mm suit on and had a really tough time the 1st time, so he had her try it again, but she did it out of order. So he gigged her on that.

Far as I know he just wanted us to get used to working underwater. BUT I know he talks down to people. He's Ex-Navy diver, wadda expect.

If she was able to handle the mask clearing ok up until that silly equipment removal exercise, then I think she got ripped off. That sort of total removal/replacement was never required of me until I did the equipment exchange in my DM class. I'd be inclined to think that a lot of beginning OW students would have trouble with that one.

My recommendation to her: Find an instructor or dive shop that is training recreational divers, not Navy Seals. :11:

 

[pt40fathoms]

Well now this makes all the difference in the world. In a reply you made later on, you stated that the instructor is a former Navy Seal. Well, someone should tell him that he's no longer in the Navy, and this is RECREATIONAL diving students he's teaching.

Under no circumstances would I ever consider task loading my OW students to this level. This is just insane!

My DM students however I grind up, keep them wondering whats next, and work em like dogs...LOL.

Part 2

It turns out, that during the confined water the instructor, had them remove and replace all equipment, went like this

Remove all equip.
Remove mask
Turn off air from tank
Bleed air out
Turn air back on
Clear mask
Replace equip.

Done

 

[wolf eel]

Sideband So you are saying the mask skill should no longer be a requirement for certification for anyone? I always thought the lost reg. recovery skill to be kind of silly. I'd love to see how many divers remove their regulator and toss it back over their shoulder on a regular basis.

I know. I am going to try and explain my quote. First you did not understand the part that it was understood how important that skill was. Second I said it is the norm to allow a student to attend or sit in on another class, to be able to grasp what is needed for him or her. And sorry for all your bad luck with guitars I never bothered even trying as I was toooo busy learning how to dive. As for the lost reg every new diver can do that., that is I think the most used and reused one. Most not all smile alot thats normal and I through me reg out into deep green all the time. I never said let anybody slide on anything but look at what the guy teaches its like my DAD most never made it past the front door of the shop. Its a sport let people enjoy be nice and promote good will to new diver.

To help satisy your curiosity a bit, I flood and clear my mask on almost every dive and do a complete removal on every second or third dive.

I am going to regret saying this but. How many dives do you have under your belt now ? thats why. After the keener fades so do most of the drills and then after abit you do it again for fun.

I know another diver that on every dive he decends, removes his mask and blows his nose. A female diver I know smiles so much when she's diving that her mask is constantly flooding or flooded.

The other thing are you diving warm or cold water and glad to hear you have so many people you know who dive with there mask off I personally have never seen anybody do the mask drill on dives.

 

[japan-diver]

As for the lost reg every brain dead diver can do that., that is I think the most used and reused one.

I am going to regret saying this but. How many dives do you have under your belt now ? thats why. After the keener fades so do most of the drills and then after abit you do it again for fun. The other thing are you diving warm or cold water and glad to hear you have so many people you know who dive with there mask off I personally have never seen anybody do the mask drill on dives.

You need to read some accident reports. Have seen quite a few where divers died because they could not recover a reg. Also have had a few classes where reg recovery was one of the more difficult skills for some students to master, so I would say not every diver can do it.

I have a few thousand dives am tech certified, am a course director and still practice mask drills on almost every dive so do most of the people I dive with. Nothing like keeping the skills sharp.

 

[wolf eel]

japan-diver You need to read some accident reports. Have seen quite a few where divers died because they could not recover a reg. Also have had a few classes where reg recovery was one of the more difficult skills for some students to master, so I would say not every diver can do it.

I have a few thousand dives am tech certified, am a course director and still practice mask drills on almost every dive so do most of the people I dive with. Nothing like keeping the skills sharp.

Alright I am sorry for not knowing this. BTW I too have a couple of dives and I was tech and still I have not for years seen anybody do the mask drill. I have also never heard of anybody dieing because of a reg recovery practice also did they not have a back up ? Anyhow I should not have said the brain dead thing I ment no harm to anybody directly but I had no idea people had a hard time doing it. Are you diving warm or cold ?

I never saw any of the thirty divers here this weekend do it ? Anybody else like to weigh in. Is it common to do the mask drill ?

 

[ChrisA]

I asked a few instructors I know if many OW students fail the OW class. I got a solid "Yes" from those I asked. Turns out the fail rate is "one in a handfull". But then "fail" may not mean they don't get certified. What happens is they could get "recycled" into another OW class or sometimes the student figures out that diving is not for them. But I was surprized to hear that quite a few students don't make it through the class.

My next question was "why" and who is it that doesn't pass. Answer was that it's people with no background in water sports. Swimmers, surfers and snorklers do well

Of course after certification some students never dive again. In fact quite a few don't. I figure some students were just curious about scuba, fond that they could pass the class but that diving was not what they expected. That's OK

Also, someone who lives near me saw me unloading tanks from my truck one day and said he tried OW class once but didn't finish. He couldn't do some of the skills and learned enough in the first few clases that he found diving was not for him. It's not surprizing. People who sign up don't know enough to even know if they'd like diving. After two pool sessions they know a lot more about it.

I was talking to this girl the other day about scuba, and she said she failed the NAUI O/W cert. When I pressed her for more info she said that she had a hard time clearing her mask, and the instructor didn't let her get her O/W cert.

There probably more to the story but, I've never heard of anyone failing scuba classes before, I've heard about people taking longer then other people, or quiting, but failing?

Thoughts on this?

 

[ChrisA]

You need to read some accident reports. Have seen quite a few where divers died because they could not recover a reg.

THere was a kid here (So. Cal.) who died in under 30ft of water. Seems his mask flooded and he did a panked asent while holding his breath. A stupid preventable acident.

I remember I was learning to fly an airplane. The instructor would shut down the engine and say "alright now what?" Or course being a smart *** I'd say I'll just turn it back on. But no, the point was we were going down and I was to pick a spot and THEN trouble shoot after setting up a best-case landing. He'd also cover an instrument with a big black suction cup and make me deal with the simulated failure. Or He'd put the airplane upside down and spinning while I had my eyes closed then he'd say "open your eyes and fix it."

I think OW instructors should do drills like the above. Knock the mask off without warning or sneek up and shut off the air Make you deal with it in a controled situation so when it happens in real life it just a "been there done that" kind of thing.

And about the not-recovered reg. I was on a boat once. there was an OW class below. A student was doing the BC oral inflate drill, lost the reg and paniced, bolted to the surface with a DM in tow. She had multiple octos within arm's reach but still this stuff happens.