Failed CESA in OW

[ChrisDee]

When you made the statements quoted here, I asked you for evidence of what you wrote. You later provided documents which you said supported those claims. They don't.

Here are some comments.

1. The documents describe NOAA training for a scientific diver certification, a certification level far beyond anything required by any recreational agency. So by "many divers" you really mean a very tiny percentage of select divers planning to do challenging scientific scientific diving as part of a NOAA team.
2. I found nothing saying they "were required to tread water, hands visible, (from the wrist up,) for 30 min." Yes, there is a requirement for a 30 minute float, but no mention of the hands at all. The entire standard says, "Tread water for 30 minutes."
3. You said "other agencies still require free swimming with weights in your hands from a specified depth and a surface swim for a specified distance." All agencies I know do require a surface swim for a specified distance. That has always been true. I do not know of any, however, that require "swimming with weights in your hands from a specified depth." The three documents you provided do not have that requirement.

So, as in other cases, you made factual claims, and I asked you to provide evidence of those claims. In this case, you provided three documents, one extremely long (250 pages), but none of those three documents support the claims you made, other than that divers are required to swim a certain distance on the surface, which I think everyone knows to be true. One of those documents is nothing more than a statement prohibiting free diving, which has nothing to do with anything we are discussing here.

In other words yo are incapable of looking anything up for your self? Why is it some people demand others do their homework, and then when they pick and choose a response, that only supports their view, why do you do this. You are making this site a very, very, inhospitable place with your constant unsupported, layerlike attacks on people??? If you can't be bothered to look something up yourself, like the NOAA diver physical requirements,... they why ask the question in the first place. Some might say that no matter what effort anyone goes to, if you don't like the data and manuals presented, go find your own rather than go on the attack. sounds to me like no matter what anyone does, if you disagree with it, you start a flame war? I can find plenty of 30 min standards, but why bother. Your set up was so obvious,...amateur,.....


Not gone unnoticed is the number of times you have uploaded any requested manuals or documentation. Call the kettle black.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Weighting must be perfect in order to swim down the buoyancy on the surface and swim up the weight on the bottom. freedivers can't afford to get weighting wrong, the weight of your legs out of water must counter your buoyancy on the surface when freediving. Drag is a complete waste of energy.

I agree with all this, but you still didn’t answer my question, but I’ll take it.
I was a freediver before I got scuba certified and I still am a freediver.
I think you know where I was going with this.
In this day and age scuba is taught without any freediving or skin diving skills, and I think that deprives modern scuba divers of a valuable skillset.

 

[tursiops]

In other words yo are incapable of looking anything up for your self? Why is it some people demand others do their homework, and then when they pick and choose a response, that only supports their view, why do you do this. You are making this site a very, very, inhospitable place with your constant unsupported, layerlike attacks on people??? If you can't be bothered to look something up yourself, like the NOAA diver physical requirements,... they why ask the question in the first place. Some might say that no matter what effort anyone goes to, if you don't like the data and manuals presented, go find your own rather than go on the attack. sounds to me like no matter what anyone does, if you disagree with it, you start a flame war? I can find plenty of 30 min standards, but why bother. Your set up was so obvious,...amateur,.....


Not gone unnoticed is the number of times you have uploaded any requested manuals or documentation. Call the kettle black.

The NOAA Diver Swim Test Requriements are very easy to look up. They say:

Since there is nothing were about the requirements you mention, such as hands out of water during the tread, etc., can you provide a citation to the high standards you are quoting?

 

[tursiops]

In other words yo are incapable of looking anything up for your self? Why is it some people demand others do their homework,

I believe you misunderstand how this works. If YOU make an assertion, YOU need to provide the evidence to back up your assertion. You have to do your own homework.

 

[L13]

I believe you misunderstand how this works. If YOU make an assertion, YOU need to provide the evidence to back up your assertion. You have to do your own homework.

I think he understands, but has other motives:

(from another thread but about the same poster)

Stop feeding the troll. The more you feed, the more inflammatory dreck he spews back.

 

[tursiops]

I think he understands, but has other motives:

(from another thread but about the same poster)

Yeah, I guess you are right. It bothers me that he posts the dreck in Basic, where many readers assume it is truth. He would do himself and Basic a real service by providing citations for his assertions, but I gues then there would not be much to post.

 

[ChrisDee]

The NOAA Diver Swim Test Requriements are very easy to look up. They say:
View attachment 779215

Since there is nothing were about the requirements you mention, such as hands out of water during the tread, etc., can you provide a citation to the high standards you are quoting?

Different publications , have differing standards. NOAA runs courses for many Universities and if you get a grant they require the academics to meet a certain standard. As compared with NOAA employee divers, which also have different standards and different documents. Which document are you referring to? They have a really big web presence and yo are free to get much of what they have to offer. Except of course the latest NOAA dive manual, they use a private publisher for the most recent version, bummer I know. It is a great resource. And No, I do not have to do your homework for you. Too many people spoon fed. Like what has happened to this inane dependency upon dive computers, when research indicated a large percentage don't understand what they are looking at,... this is an issue. A sign of the times in our current society, so many want the easy way and can't be bothered to do the work themselves.

Here is some more easily available internet reading, I noticed it wasn't in the resource section, but many might enjoy reading these,...

 

[ChrisDee]

Yeah, I guess you are right. It bothers me that he posts the dreck in Basic, where many readers assume it is truth. He would do himself and Basic a real service by providing citations for his assertions, but I gues then there would not be much to post.

I'm not the one posting in "Basic," I have already commented on that. I'm not the one that hijacked the thread,...you are. I'm responding to your questions, and others who have questions. I am trying to ignore those that can not contribute anything other than,...the troll comments.

I have noticed so many here can't be bothered to share opinions, post interesting knowledgeable things to read. Or even be kind. Is that too much to ask for?

 

[L13]

And another 0/3 documents by ChrisDee. None of the three contain a requirement for 30 min tread with hands above water.

At this point, I consider a from ChrisDee to be a badge of honor and a sign that I am on the right track!

 

[tursiops]

NOAA runs courses for many Universities and if you get a grant they require the academics to meet a certain standard.

NOAA doesn't do any training in universities. That is the purview of the AAUS. The AAUS Standards Manual is attached. There are reciprocity agreements between NOAA Diving and AAUS organizations.
The AAUS does have Watermanship standards:
"Swimming/Watermanship Evaluation
The candidate must demonstrate the following in the presence of the DSO or designee. All tests are to be performed without swim aids. However, where exposure protection is needed, the candidate must be appropriately weighted to provide for neutral buoyancy.
a) Swim underwater for a distance of 25 yards (23 meters) without surfacing.
b) Swim 400 yards (366 meters) in less than 12 minutes.
c) Tread water for 10 minutes, or 2 minutes without the use of hands.
d) Transport a passive person of equal size a distance of 25 yards (23 meters) in the water."

Which document are you referring to?

I was quoting from the attached document, 0313.

Here is some more easily available internet reading

Irrelevant to the discussion. The Somers document is almost 50 years old.