Failed CESA in OW

[Boarderguy]

Yeah, that's why I don't like that new divers being told online to get steel BPs and wings. Those are the people who end up with way too much non ditchable weight.

A steel BP/W doesn't give you too much weight for most diving that requires exposure protection especially when paired with an AL 80. MOST advice is to get a plate and wing, but not necessarily a steel one. They make aluminum and carbon fiber for those who wish to have even less weight on their rig. You can also add ditchable weight pockets to the waist of your need more (cold water and dry diving).

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Yeah, that's why I don't like that new divers being told online to get steel BPs and wings. Those are the people who end up with way too much non ditchable weight.

I depends.
If they have a grasp of proper weighting and have enough exposure protection to offset a steel plate and steel tank then that ballast just becomes part of the sum total. As long as they are properly weighted, or as the modern buzz word describes “a balanced rig”.
The problem arises when you get a person who ignorantly still uses the grossly overweighted model and applies it to a non ditchable weighted rig, then you have a huge problem.

 

[boulderjohn]

Years ago I did the local OW dives (fresh water lake) with a student who had done his pool work with another instructor in our shop, one who taught on the knees. Knowing he would be doing his OW dives in a local lake with a 7mm wetsuit, he asked to use that same suit in the pool sessions. As a result, he insisted he knew for a fact that he needed 22 pounds for our OW dives.

I looked at his small frame and thought "No way!" I was able to convince him to do the first weight check with 18 pounds, and he was shocked to have that check indicate he was overweighted. By the time we got him certified, he was using 10 pounds and was astonished by how much easier the diving was when he wasn't surrounded by a BCD full of the air needed to compensate for that overweighting. He was also surprised by how different skills are when they are done neutrally buoyant and in horizontal trim compared to when anchored to the pool floor in a kneeling position.

 

[berndo]

I depends.
If they have a grasp of proper weighting and have enough exposure protection to offset a steel plate and steel tank then that ballast just becomes part of the sum total. As long as they are properly weighted, or as the modern buzz word describes “a balanced rig”.
The problem arises when you get a person who ignorantly still uses the grossly overweighted model and applies it to a non ditchable weighted rig, then you have a huge problem.

Yes, if they had a grasp of proper weighting, I'd agree, but most don't.

The other day I dove with a guys who had over 100 or 150 dives. I pulled - I kid you not - 10 or 12 lbs off his rig and he was still too heavy on the second dive. It is pretty common to see even experienced divers with a ton of gas in their drysuits and BCs. People would literally ask for 8 or 10 kg (16-20lbs-ish) at the dive shop I used to work at, for dives in 5mm wet suits and steel tanks.
I live in Europe and nobody ever buys a AL or carbon plate. People just buy steel. People read about bp/w on the internet and order online.

 

[berndo]

As a result, he insisted he knew for a fact that he needed 22 pounds for our OW dives.

When you work at a busy dive shop in a vacation destination you hear this virtually every day. At least it used to be that way. I doubt much has changed.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I looked at his small frame and thought "No way!" I was able to convince him to do the first weight check with 18 pounds, and he was shocked to have that check indicate he was overweighted. By the time we got him certified, he was using 10 pounds and was astonished by how much easier the diving was when he wasn't surrounded by a BCD full of the air needed to compensate for that overweighting. He was also surprised by how different skills are when they are done neutrally buoyant and in horizontal trim compared to when anchored to the pool floor in a kneeling position.

Another problem with being overweighted and needing to have a huge amount of gas in a BC is that it can make a safety stop real hell. 15’ is right in the middle of the first ATM and as such the most pressure changes happen right in this zone. When divers have excessive amounts of air In the BC it expands and contracts with even the slightest increase or decrease in depth. Take an overweighted diver doing a stop out in open ocean with swells running overhead and it becomes a total yoyo fest.
I find having an empty wing or near empty makes holding a stop so much easier.

 

[ChrisDee]

Exactly!!
This is my biggest and most vocal gripe in modern scuba instruction and diving, OVERWEIGHTING!
IMO consistently overweighting students to the point like what the OP experienced is probably one of the biggest things killing the interest of new divers getting into the hobby. The OP himself quotes as saying he’s almost to the point of just saying F**k it!
It has also been responsible for killing divers even after surfacing with issues only to sink away again to their deaths.
I was also overweighted when I took OW, but it was weightbelts with wetsuits in the ocean. At least 10 lbs too much. Caused struggling at the surface and the weightbelt roll-on exercise was a clown show with that much weight.
And divers who carry on this nonsense into the new fad of non ditchable weight is complete madness!

More than a gripe. And so spot on on so many levels,...

Since the Linnea Mills tragedy,...things will change.

Diving is supposed to be fun. Not a test. Yes, obviously there are things that absolutely need to be learned,...but sounds like the OP got a gauntlet more than a course. Now if you want a place where you can be tested,....

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Yes, if they had a grasp of proper weighting, I'd agree, but most don't.

The other day I dove with a guys who had over 100 or 150 dives. I pulled - I kid you not - 10 or 12 lbs off his rig and he was still too heavy on the second dive. It is pretty common to see even experienced divers with a ton of gas in their drysuits and BCs. People would literally ask for 8 or 10 kg (16-20lbs-ish) at the dive shop I used to work at, for dives in 5mm wet suits and steel tanks.
I live in Europe and nobody ever buys a AL or carbon plate. People just buy steel. People read about bp/w on the internet and order online.

There is an ingrained culture of overweighting, and all this sprouted when the current BC was invented.
This tradition seems to carry on from generation to generation. In the old days before BC’s, divers had to weight themselves properly or else they bounced off the bottom and/or crawled on the bottom. Weighting matched skin diving much closer since scuba grew out if skin diving and for a time both used the same gear (except for the S.C.U.B.A part).
However, over the years scuba took on a life of it’s own, and along with the invention of the BC came the invention of overweighting since we now had a device that could cover and correct that problem with pneumatic lift. Instructors abuse this feature to it’s fullest potential keeping divers pinned to the bottom so they can “teach” them without them floating away. Yes on the knees. This behavior never gets corrected and right there is the moment of conception and the sprouting of a new culture that gets passed on and on.
Tell a lie enough and it becomes the truth, so the saying goes.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

There is an ingrained culture of overweighting, and all this sprouted when the current BC was invented.
This tradition seems to carry on from generation to generation. In the old days before BC’s, divers had to weight themselves properly or else they bounced off the bottom and/or crawled on the bottom. Weighting matched skin diving much closer since scuba grew out if skin diving and for a time both used the same gear (except for the S.C.U.B.A part).
However, over the years scuba took on a life of it’s own, and along with the invention of the BC came the invention of overweighting since we now had a device that could cover and correct that problem with pneumatic lift. Instructors abuse this feature to it’s fullest potential keeping divers pinned to the bottom so they can “teach” them without them floating away. Yes on the knees. This behavior never gets corrected and right there is the moment of conception and the sprouting of a new culture that gets passed on and on.
Tell a lie enough and it becomes the truth, so the saying goes.

From PADI Through the Decades: The 1980s

1981: Pool Dives

In 1981, PADI became the first scuba program to have new divers use scuba gear during their first confined water/pool dives. At the time it was considered bizarre to start divers with scuba rather than freediving. Now it has become an industry standard, and the “Dive Today” approach has continued to prove itself.

Yeah, we all know how that has worked out.

 

[berndo]

Instructors abuse this feature to it’s fullest potential keeping divers pinned to the bottom so they can “teach” them without them floating away.

I think they just don't know better. Instructor training isn't that great. I'm sure the OPs instructor also doesn't know better, he's making it harder for himself.

I used to dive a DIY sidemount harness for while. In a 7mm wet suit and 2 AL80s without any BC.
Several divers whom I told about this thought I was BSing them... they thought I must be lying because it wouldn't be possible to dive without a BC.
I told some of them to go an watch an episode of Flipper.