Failed CESA in OW

[tursiops]

I never said my procedure was meant to replace the CESA. My post was directed at the person who asked me a direct question.


Well if you read my post, I believe you have the ability to comprehend what my point was due to me being very clear about it but let me help you:






The above states my point pretty clearly.


We aren't teaching solo diving in the OWC nor are we trying to create independent divers. We are trying to create new divers, introduce them to the joys of SCUBA and show them what is down that there that is worth protecting while making them safe. We should also be working to creating a thinking diver...which is far different than an independent diver. As this post is in Basic scuba, I believe your mention of independent divers is way off topic and not something to be discussed when the OP was discussing the CESA in the OWC.

Please don't interpret my desire for some independence in an OW diver as meaning I want them to be Solo divers. If I'd meant that I would have said that. Rather, I'd like to move OW divers away from what all too often is complete dependence on their buddy, from equipment setup, to dive planning, to navigation, to gas monitoring, to ascent management. It is a spectrum, of course, from total dependence on one's buddy to no need of a buddy. There are too many -- because of our training -- that are clustered at the dependence end of the spectrum and are fearful of moving millimeter away.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

Please don't interpret my desire for some independence in an OW diver as meaning I want them to be Solo divers. If I'd meant that I would have said that. Rather, I'd like to move OW divers away from what all too often is complete dependence on their buddy, from equipment setup, to dive planning, to navigation, to gas monitoring, to ascent management. It is a spectrum, of course, from total dependence on one's buddy to no need of a buddy. There are too many -- because of our training -- that are clustered at the dependence end of the spectrum and are fearful of moving millimeter away.

Fair enough. I think if a diver is dependent on their buddy for equipment setup, planning, nav and gas monitoring, the instructor that taught them did a very poor job. All divers should be able to do these things on their own post OWC. With maybe the exception being some complex compass navigation. But if one lives and dives regularly where compass headings need to be used to hit spots, this should have a higher focus during the course.

I believe we want the same things but things got lost in our wording of those desired outcomes.

 

[Angelo Farina]

No, it does not mention CESA by name however it does state the following;



What is an independent procedure if in ST/BM ? That would be a CESA and the dependent would be gas sharing

An independent procedure is simply to switch to your alternate air source. Which can just be an octo, a fully independent reg on a second valve, or a fully independent cylinder (pony tank, doubles, sidemount, etc.): increasing level of redundancy.
Remember that buddy breathing is a remain from a time when most people used only one reg: no octo, no secondary full reg, no additional tanks. This was typical of American for-profit agencies, here in Europe instead we always started with double tanks and two fully independent regs, (and a reserve, which adds further redundancy) even back in the seventies.
I was very happy when CMAS removed CESA from training, and insisted that any problem should be primarily addressed remaining underwater.
And when the primary problem solution also fails, then it will be a buoyant emergency ascent, not a CESA.

 

[JRK44]

OK, First post, so dont jump on me...(Have looked on other posts & cant find...)

I did my first two OW dives at the weekend... was really struggling with maintaining Neutral buoyancy (Drysuit worn) and had extra weight added, both in BCD & Harness...
I wasn't tested for buoyancy at the surface...so once air was released from BCD i went down like a stone, deep breath not enough to keep me at eye level at surface...
So, struggling for the day, we went into day 2 & dive 3...
We started the CESA & i was a bit confused by the instructions at 5 or 6m platform, as they seemed to contradict what was said at the surface... Instructor seemed to offer me the buoy rope, so i took it.. FAILED...
try again...
got to surface fine, but could not inflate BCD orally, as weight kept dragging me under...FAILED
try again...
Same.. kicking like mad.... still sinking, reg back in...FAILED
try again...
Not sure what happened here.. Instructor pulled my reg out which completely threw me, grabbed reg & purged to get back in.. FAILED
try again...
same.. weight stopping me from being able to take a breath at surface...
at this point instructor took of hood & I realised that it was all over...wasnt allowed to do dive 4.
I'm absolutely devastated! Quite frankly, at the moment I never want to put a BCD on again....
Wide open question...by my description.. was I missing something, was i doing something wrong...? It wasn't really explained, just told that I wasn't getting it.... whatever happened to the "we'll do it all in your own time" mantra.. "no rush" etc....

Gutted !!

Get a different instructor.
Their job is to conduct instruction in a safe way while also instilling in you the skills to meet the standards of the course you're on.
Their job isn't to throw you in the water and pass/fail you on a task you haven't been properly taught how to do.

 

[Belzelbub]

There are too many -- because of our training -- that are clustered at the dependence end of the spectrum and are fearful of moving millimeter away.

Agreed. Too many, but, thankfully, not all. This is likely a product of the resort certification. After cert, they dive with a DM on charters and are just fine to be led around. As much as it’s on the style of training, it’s also on the trainee. Being stuck in their comfort zone. If they only ever dive on vacations, there may be little motivation to expand their boundaries.

Remember that buddy breathing is a remain from a time when most people used only one reg: no octo, no secondary full reg, no additional tanks.

The no octo configuration is pretty rare these days, but the single tank, single 1st stage is still the overwhelming majority in open water divers. My OW courses taught a few different methods of air sharing. Primary donate, secondary donate, and single 2nd stage air sharing.

Primary and/or secondary donate are still taught by most agencies today. The single 2nd (2 breaths pass) method is pretty much phased out, if not completely. With octos being so common, it’s unlikely that a diver will face that situation.

 

[johndiver999]

Agreed. Too many, but, thankfully, not all. This is likely a product of the resort certification. After cert, they dive with a DM on charters and are just fine to be led around. As much as it’s on the style of training, it’s also on the trainee. Being stuck in their comfort zone. If they only ever dive on vacations, there may be little motivation to expand their boundaries.

The no octo configuration is pretty rare these days, but the single tank, single 1st stage is still the overwhelming majority in open water divers. My OW courses taught a few different methods of air sharing. Primary donate, secondary donate, and single 2nd stage air sharing.

Primary and/or secondary donate are still taught by most agencies today. The single 2nd (2 breaths pass) method is pretty much phased out, if not completely. With octos being so common, it’s unlikely that a diver will face that situation.

True but I wonder if the OP had actually been taught that (sharing a reg) and mastered the skill, the whole incident would not have occurred.

 

[Belzelbub]

True but I wonder if the OP had actually been taught that (sharing a reg) and mastered the skill, the whole incident would not have occurred.

Perhaps. However, the biggest problem was the instructor not recognizing and correcting the overweight situation. Coupled with an aggressive nature that may be a bit much for an open water course.

Contrasting that with my recent Stress & Rescue course. My fellow students (regular dive buddies of mine) were uncertain about how much weight they would need in freshwater, as we normally dive in salt. Instructor opted to guide them to weight lightly, and took a couple extra weights in the pool. OP was unable to float at eye level, so this should have been corrected.

The reg grab seems aggressive, and I’m not sure why it was done during a CESA, unless it was expected that the OP would have used their secondary. Reg should remain in the mouth as the lower pressure on ascent may enable an extra breath. During my S&R course, this happened to me. I approached the Asst Instructor, and without warning, he grabbed my reg. That was fine with me as I have over 250 dives under my belt, but quite a different scenario for a diver that is on their first few dives. Turns out, even in my case, the assistant was supposed to signal OOA first.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

An independent procedure is simply to switch to your alternate air source. Which can just be an octo,

In an OOG event, an independent procedure would not be to switch to your AAS/octo. What gas are you going to breathe when you switch regs since you do not have any gas left?

 

[Angelo Farina]

In an OOG event, an independent procedure would not be to switch to your AAS/octo. What gas are you going to breathe when you switch regs since you do not have any gas left?

Some OOG events I witnessed were simply due to 2nd stage misfunctioning. Doing a Cesa in such cases is a wrong choice, you can just breath from your alternate air source.
Said that, I did never like the octopus.
I have seen more frequently first stage, O-ring or valve failures. So I always taught to use a 15 liters steel tank with double valve and reserve, and using two independent regs.
With this setup emptying the tank is truly a very rare case: you must trigger the reserve, open it, and continue diving instead of ascending. Not impossible, but truly stupid!
I did never understand why double valves with reserve went out of fashion. They were the standard here in Europe 30-40 years ago. And I still have one on my 15-liters steel Cressi tank.

 

[boulderjohn]

Said that, I did never like the octopus.

I have seen more frequently first stage, O-ring or valve failures. So I always taught to use a 15 liters steel tank with double valve and reserve, and using two independent regs.

Wow! The people you dive with must use really crappy equipment. I cannot begin to estimate how many people I have dived with around the world in my diving lifetime, and I have never seen a regulator fail under water.

I have also only been in the vicinity of only two OOA situations in that time.

• In one case, a diver in my group clearly did not check her gas supply before the dive, because she was OOA after only a few minutes at depth. She calmly took her husband's alternate, and we all did an orderly ascent.
• The other case was just a few weeks ago. It was a wreck dive in South Florida, in which the procedure is for the DM to descend to the wreck and tie off a line leading to the boat for people to descend and ascend. When she got back to the boat, she warned of a ripping current, and she was right. I was the 4th one down the line, and two of the people ahead of me (very experienced divers) quit during the descent, exhausted from pulling down the line into that current. I later learned that nearly half of the divers quit during the descent. After the dive, one of the divers said he had not realized how much air he had sucked down on that descent, and he had started the ascent without enough air. He ran out during the safety stop and calmly shared air with his buddy's alternate.

Summary: I have never seen anything like your "more frequently" experiences, and the only two cases of OOA I have seen were easily handled with the use of an alternate.