Evolve 40 or 60 with doubles?

[cool_hardware52]

I use a 40# wing w/ my twin AL80's (for open water) and a 60# wing for my twin LP108's (for cave). I was told by a few GUE instructors to go w/ the 60# wing for the steels due to the weight PLUS the fact that I may need the additional lift when adding multiple stage bottles (not there yet - but in the future). In terms of tanks, I guess I'm at both ends of the spectrum so there really wasn't much doubt. I suppose twin 100's are sort of in the middle. However, when in doubt, shouldn't one just go with the bigger wing? What's the downside?

Suit buoyancy and gas capacity are the factors that impact required wing size.

Tank material should not.

The goal is to have your total ballast equal to or very slightly in excess of the buoyancy of the drysuit with minimum gas in it.

If the ballast provided by divers back plate + regs + can light + bands and manifold + empty tanks is greater than the buoyancy of their suit they need to switch to a lighter plate, or less negative tanks.

The solution to being over weighted is not to strap on a larger wing.


Tobin

 

[LiteHedded]

the 40 is fine for me with no extra bottles.
it struggles with stages and deco bottles and I use the 55lb wing

 

[lamont]

Suit buoyancy and gas capacity are the factors that impact required wing size.

Tank material should not.

Tank diameter does impact wing size.

I took my 60# evolve wing to Mexico and dove it with Al80s and it would taco the tanks and trap gas above the tanks. The 40# wings are smaller, so on the smaller diameter tanks they don't taco and the gas moves around in the wing easier. The 60# wing with Al80s was quite annoying.

The 40# evolve really goes with Al80s and LP80/HP100s. The 60# wing goes with HP119/HP130/LP95/LP104 tanks.

You can also dive the 40# wing with double-130s, but if you're starting with a lot of extra gas then it gets more interesting. On a rectriox/tech1 dive with proper weighting, helium in backgas and only up to one Al40 of nitrox/O2 mix a 40# wing with 130s should work, but on a boat dive with some rougher surface conditions a 60# wing might be more comfortable.

 

[nessum]

Jeepman,

While the calculations are valuable to determining what should work, I am using a 40lbs evolve with my HP 100s and, especially when I add a full stage to the set-up, I am very uncomfortable at the surface... the rig is barely positive. I will likely end up purchasing a 60lbs for comfort's sake and would recommend anyone using these tanks to do the same.

Better yet, do you know anyone your could borrow one or either wing from to give it a try yourself?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I haven't had much luck in getting the 40lb wings to float my steel doubles.

Full, even the HP100s have 16 lbs of nitrox/air in them. The tanks, manifold and bands will be 8-10lbs, and a steel BP with all your hardware/can light will be 10lbs or more. That leaves very little room to spare. If you figure the tanks will pinch the wing a little when fully inflated, you probably won't get more than 35# of lift out of the wing anyway, so you might just opt for the larger wing.

Tom

That's funny -- I haven't had any problems floating my doubles with my 40 lb Deep Outdoors wing (that's with LP72s, LP85s, and HP100s). I suppose, if I were diving bigger steels with cave fills, things might be different.

I suspect the main reason may have more to do with differences in exposure gear and the fact that Tom dives mainly in fresh water while you dive mainly in salt water.

FWIW - when I owned my Evolve 40 it worked great with HP100's ... but was very marginal with my E8 119's.

Hi there,

I am between the Halcyon evolve 40 and 60 for a pair of 100s. Which would you recommend? Also I would like the possibility to go up to 120s in the future without having to purchase a new wing. Right now I am diving Halcyon but with singles. I would be diving mainly dry when I use the doubles.

Thanks!

I would recommend looking at other alternatives ... a Torus 49 just might fit your needs. It's a bit wider than the E40, narrower than the E60, and less expensive than either.

Here's a picture of the T49 next to an E40 ...

... and the same T49 next to the E60 ...

When these pics were taken, I owned and dived all three wings. Eventually I decided the T49 would fit my needs better than the E40 and sold the latter. Now that I'm doing more dives involving multiple bottles and scooters, I tend to prefer the E60 for tech dives and the T49 for recreational dives (all with dual 119's) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tank diameter does impact wing size.

No, not really.

Unlike single wings, doubles wing can only inflate beyond the point where the tanks contact the back plate. Pretty much all modern manifolds space tanks at 215 mm (8.46 inches)

My double faber 45's (5.5 inches in diameter ) contact the back plate right down each of the plate, oddly enough 8.46 inches apart.

My al 80 doubles (7.25 inches in diameter) contact the back plate right down each of the plate, oddly enough 8.46 inches apart.

My lp 85 doubles (7.00 inches in diameter) contact the back plate right down each of the plate, oddly enough 8.46 inches apart.

My Lp 120 doubles (8.00 inches in diameter) contact the back plate right down each of the plate, oddly enough 8.46 inches apart.

That means regardless of the tank diameter the center panel of any doubles wing needs to be about 9 inches wide.

If the center panel were less than 9 inches the bladder will be pinched between the back plate and the tanks.

Because doubles wing can only inflate outboard of the "foot print" set by the width of the manifold (~9 inches) and the length of the back plate (~16 inches) higher volume wings have to be wider This is not a function of the diameter of the cylinder in any way.

I took my 60# evolve wing to Mexico and dove it with Al80s and it would taco the tanks and trap gas above the tanks. The 40# wings are smaller, so on the smaller diameter tanks they don't taco and the gas moves around in the wing easier. The 60# wing with Al80s was quite annoying.

I'm sure it was, but not because of the diameter of the tanks. It was annoying because you don't need a 60 lbs wing with 13 lbs of back gas in a warm water exposure suit. Tank volume, not diameter.

How much "wider" is a set of 8 inch tanks compared to a set of 7 inch tanks, assuming both are using a 215 mm manifold? The 8 inch tanks will be a whole whopping 1/2" wider on each side for a total of 1 inch.

To be technically accurate wings "wrap" up one quadrant of a cylinder. Consider one tank only, the left tank. The tank contact the back plate at about 6 o'clock and wraps up to about 9 o'clock. Above 9 o'clock the wing is free to extend straight up.

The circumference of an 8 inch bottle is 8 * pi = 25.1" one quarter of this is 25.1 / 4 = 6.3"

The circumference of an 7 inch bottle is 7 * pi = 22.0" one quarter of this is 22.0 / 4 = 5.5"

6.3 - 5.5 = .8 inches. If one uses any wing with 7 inch tanks they can expect the top edges of a slightly inflated wing, for a horizontally trimmed diver, to be a whopping 0.8" higher than if they used the same wing with 8 inch tanks.




Tobin

 

[lamont]

That means regardless of the tank diameter the center panel of any doubles wing needs to be about 9 inches wide.

yep, that's not the problem, the issue is total width of the wing vs. width of the tanks.

I'm sure it was, but not because of the diameter of the tanks. It was annoying because you don't need a 60 lbs wing with 13 lbs of back gas in a warm water exposure suit. Tank volume, not diameter.

either way you don't have much gas in the wing while actually diving it, and the extra fabric isn't inherently a problem underwater... except...

To be technically accurate wings "wrap" up one quadrant of a cylinder. Consider one tank only, the left tank. The tank contact the back plate at about 6 o'clock and wraps up to about 9 o'clock. Above 9 o'clock the wing is free to extend straight up.

the problem seems to be at 9 o'clock and with a 60# evolve on Al80 it tends to "pinch" there and doesn't let gas move around. with a 40# evolve on an Al80 the wing seems to be small enough that it won't let a pinch form there and the gas can move around easily.

and i'm not positive that my mechanical description of what is going on is correct since i couldn't watch myself while i was diving, but the effect definitely occurs -- at least on halcyon evolve wings. i have no idea if your wings are designed differently and don't do this....

 

[rjack321]

Deep Sea Supply didn't exist (or at least I didn't know of him) when I bought my wings. I have a 55lb H explorer which is perfect for ocean diving with hp100s, lp85s and hp119s (the doubles I have). It also works well for 108s/130s in freshwater (I'm sure its suitable for these in salt too, I just haven't tried it).

As a beginning tech diver in the ocean, I would look for something intermediate between the evolve 60 and 40. hp100s are great starter tech diving doubles but the 60 will be rather large on them and the 40 is a bit small once you add an AL40 or 80 as deco gas.

The explorer 55 can be found used for decent prices, the T49 mentioned is cheaper (new) than the evolve models, oxycheq has some good wings in the 45 to 55lb size range, etc.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I've made this suggestion before in this thread, but it is still my best advice.

For the OP:

Wait until you KNOW what cylinders and exposure suit you will be using before choosing a wing.

Buying now, even at a "can't miss" deal price, presents a real risk of buying twice.

Tobin

 

[SparticleBrane]

"Buy it nice, or buy it twice."