Etymology of the word 'Stroke'

[Thalassamania]

Hmmm.....life as a brainless drone, incapable of thought and decision-making, mindlessly and blindly following others without question - or dead...hmm....tough choice.

I'd hardly describe GIII or JJ or Gavin or Schile or Norkus (et. al.) as brainless drones (though I have on rare occasions, felt for a moment or two, that some of them were brainless, but never a drone). Research and exploration is not the place for the expression of individuality ... it is the place for exacting and precise teamwork ... and yes there are times when teamwork is defined as, "a whole bunch of people doing exactly what they are told."

 

[NudeDiver]

I agree in spirit, but in my experience this is a misconception of DIR teams perpetuated by the "anti DIR divers", and is not an acurate representation of a "real" DIR minded diver.

I'm just responding to the views as described here. I realize that the REAL views may be different than the descriptions here, but the descriptions here are all I've got to go on

FWIW, I love my local DIR guy - and I don't think he has the views described here. He is always more than willing to explain the how and why he does what he does and engage in stimulating conversation about it. They get me to think and ponder.

A guy who says "my way or the highway, no discussion - don't want to hear your ideas" will just turn me off completely from anything he may have to say. It's really not an effective way to communicate much of anything.

 

[seaducer]

A guy who says "my way or the highway, no discussion - don't want to hear your ideas" will just turn me off completely from anything he may have to say. It's really not an effective way to communicate much of anything.

I tend to agree, but it varies on context. There are times when just shutting up and doing what you are told in the only way.

To be fair, people who are in charge of teams conducting dangerous and complex work are often inundated with wanna-be types that are worthy of less respect than fruit fly. Often the leadership develops a sense about who they are talking to, and learn pretty quickly who has something of worth to add, and who talking out their @$$.

Typically the wannabe talks the loudest about the rejection, then goes on a crusade trying to prove they are smarter and better than the guy they were trying to impress. Their egos are artificially inflated and appropriately fragile. They have little else but their own fantasies, and when someone won't listen they might as well have been assaulted.

If a person who walks the walk gets rebuked, they just go on to something else. They don't have time for such trivial bs as revenge. They are the real deal and care little about what others think. Sooner or later their reputation will bring them back in and they'll make the grade. Until then they are off on other adventures.

 

[NudeDiver]

I tend to agree, but it varies on context. There are times when just shutting up and doing what you are told in the only way.

Sure. In this context, if you're underwater, and the guy who is the designated leader indicates you should do something, odds are good that you should do it.....but I still am not going to say that you should do something no matter WHAT he says. At some point, one needs to use one's brain. While, most of the time, that brain may tell you, "do what he says, even if you don't understand why" in the heat of the moment, other times, it may say "no - don't do this". Hell, it's why some criminals go to jail and why some manage to stay out of jail. You gotta know when to follow the leader and when to cut your own path.

But in this case, if you go into a guy's shop or whatever and want to chat him up about whatever, with the goal of learning something - if he comes across with the attitude that has been described on here, it's generally not going to be very successful in communicating. Not to mention the fact that, many (most?) people, who understand WHY a standard or rule is in place are more likely to follow it than those who are simply told, "it's a rule. It's the way it is. No questions allowed". The old parental mantra, "because I said so" loses its effectiveness around age 12.

...are often inundated with wanna-be types that are worthy of less respect than fruit fly....Typically the wannabe talks the loudest about the rejection, then goes on a crusade trying to prove they are smarter and better than the guy they were trying to impress. Their egos are artificially inflated and appropriately fragile. They have little else but their own fantasies, and when someone won't listen they might as well have been assaulted.

I guess I just don't have enough exposure to these people. Maybe I should get out more.

 

[Anti-Hero]

Research and exploration is not the place for the expression of individuality ... it is the place for exacting and precise teamwork ... and yes there are times when teamwork is defined as, "a whole bunch of people doing exactly what they are told."

Without commenting on the GI, JJ stuff - This paragraph is 100% correct.

 

[seaducer]

But in this case, if you go into a guy's shop or whatever and want to chat him up about whatever, with the goal of learning something - if he comes across with the attitude that has been described on here, it's generally not going to be very successful in communicating. Not to mention the fact that, many (most?) people, who understand WHY a standard or rule is in place are more likely to follow it than those who are simply told, "it's a rule. It's the way it is. No questions allowed". The old parental mantra, "because I said so" loses its effectiveness around age 12.

Yep. I had some trouble in the military because I always asked why, and then offered my ideas. In the beginning this was nightmarish. Eventually I found myself surrounded by like minded guys who not only tolerated, but encouraged this behavior. That was a whole different animal.

I guess I just don't have enough exposure to these people. Maybe I should get out more.

Lucky you. But just wait, there are few who fit the profile here on SB

 

[NudeDiver]

Lucky you. But just wait, there are few who fit the profile here on SB

Oh yes, I know. I discount their posts accordingly. I'm sure they do the same to mine

 

[TSandM]

When you're doing extreme stuff, I don't blame anybody for having a protocol. At any given time, it will be the compendium of the best practices they've been able to come up with for the project they are doing. Newcomers are best served to be quiet for a while and watch what is happening. If it happens that they bring some new information or new experience to the group, then they can contribute during a debrief, some information for discussion. It may result in some experimentation and changed procedures, or it may not, depending on whether the person who is making the decisions has had some experiences that suggest that that particular bit of information simply isn't useful or appropriate.

When you have a system that works, and you are doing things where small problems can have lethal results, you tend to be conservative and change only when it is very clear that the change is advantageous, and does not bring along problems which cancel out the improvements in other areas.

I'm not even talking about the WKPP. I'm talking about the operating room, which is an environment with which I am very familiar. Nobody was going to walk into my OR and tell me I should change something. If they wanted to talk to me afterward, or well beforehand, that was one thing. But when the "project" was underway, it was going the way I said it was going to go.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

...But in this case, if you go into a guy's shop or whatever and want to chat him up about whatever, with the goal of learning something - if he comes across with the attitude that has been described on here, it's generally not going to be very successful in communicating. Not to mention the fact that, many (most?) people, who understand WHY a standard or rule is in place are more likely to follow it than those who are simply told, "it's a rule. It's the way it is. No questions allowed". The old parental mantra, "because I said so" loses its effectiveness around age 12.

I think that some of the DIR people got very tired of recovering bodies and seeing people getting killed or hurt by engaging in activities (procedures and gear utilization)
that they felt was clearly inferior. They tried hard to disseminate the reasons why certain things were not as good as others and attempted to enlighten people as to what was required of an individual, of a team and also what equipment was more likely to "get-you-out-alive". I don't think that they put forth arbitrary standards without a lot of experience and good reasons.

 

[Thalassamania]

Sure. In this context, if you're underwater, and the guy who is the designated leader indicates you should do something, odds are good that you should do it.....but I still am not going to say that you should do something no matter WHAT he says. At some point, one needs to use one's brain. While, most of the time, that brain may tell you, "do what he says, even if you don't understand why" in the heat of the moment, other times, it may say "no - don't do this". Hell, it's why some criminals go to jail and why some manage to stay out of jail. You gotta know when to follow the leader and when to cut your own path.

But in this case, if you go into a guy's shop or whatever and want to chat him up about whatever, with the goal of learning something - if he comes across with the attitude that has been described on here, it's generally not going to be very successful in communicating. Not to mention the fact that, many (most?) people, who understand WHY a standard or rule is in place are more likely to follow it than those who are simply told, "it's a rule. It's the way it is. No questions allowed". The old parental mantra, "because I said so" loses its effectiveness around age 12.

I guess I just don't have enough exposure to these people. Maybe I should get out more.

There are several thing here that you're not getting:

1. I am not DIR, I am so far from DIR that it would make you head spin. But I know that everyone who has ever run a dive for the WKPP would endorse everything that I'm about to say. So would every Scientific Diving Operation Supervisor, every Diving Safety Officer, every commercial and Navy Diving Supervisor.
2. I do not run a shop, I am not for sale, participation in a program that I run can not be purchased.
3. I am for rent, or lease, but only on my own terms. Take it or leave it.
4. The only opportunity to, "chat me up," is here on SB or on Dive Matrix or if you come to town and want to buy me a beer.
5. We spend far more time in planning than we do diving. There is more than ample time for everyone to get on the same page, but ultimately I make the decisions. I make the rules, because that is the job that I am hired to do and I am the one responsible to the institution for managing risk during the operation. Anyone who does not like what they are required to do, how they are required to do it or the gear that they are required to use is always free, without penalty of any kind, to refuse to dive (that's also one of the rules).
6. Everyone needs to work out their problems with their parents on their own time. Anyone with authority figure hangups that are not yet resolved, and thus get to the point where someone has to say to them, "because I said so," then it's past time for them to leave, be they twelve, twenty or fifty.
7. We do not sell T-shirts, but we do often have them made up on a project by project or even a cruise by cruise basis. If you wear one from a project that you did not participate in, we will make fun of you, because when it comes right down to it, like the Nick Nolte character in "the Deep," a closet full of T-shirts is about all most of us have to show for the work we've done.
8. If anyone can not abide by all this, and has to be an "individual" ... go dive somewhere else ... we do not need to risk our lives and reputations for their ego STROKE.

Get where the term comes from?