Eagles Nest death....

[ucfdiver]

Since cave divers are the ones getting the bodies, perhaps cave divers should be calling the shots?

Only issue I see is that local sheriff's have put the smackdown on cave diving historically, IE the Jackson Co. and Gilchrist Co. cave diving bans. Specifically the Jackson Co one, from what I understand that was heavily influenced by the Sheriff. I haven't heard as much about the Gilchrist one. Unfortunately, in these places, a little ass kissing might be mandatory.

Whatever the reason, I wish someone with IUCRR would explain it. Is there not enough manpower to go through authorities? Are families suppressing the data? I'm not a huge fan of going over people's heads who have a (somewhat) working system in place, but at this time it's painfully clear that the IUCRR is not supporting the community information pool as portrayed.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Sounds like the group that really has the power (cave divers) are giving the power to the "authorities".

Since cave divers are the ones getting the bodies, perhaps cave divers should be calling the shots?

Agreed...

...but does the board of IUCRR agree?

 

[Dive-aholic]

From what I understand, there have been reports from recovery dives over the past couple years or so that have been submitted to the IUCRR, but for some reason were not posted on the website. All the reports are supposed to state is the factual information about the recovery, and sometimes there's not much to post. The recovery divers may not even ever see the dive computer or profile. I don't know how it works outside of Jackson County, but in Jackson County, the IUCRR is rarely, if ever, involved from the beginning, if at all. In Jackson County, Edd gets a call and goes to do the recovery. He then submits a report to the IUCRR after all is done.

I do know that as far as law enforcement goes, all unattended deaths, or deaths resulting in an ME case (deaths in a hospital but not from natural or expected causes), are treated as a criminal case until otherwise proven. That means information cannot/will not be released during the investigation. Once the investigation is over and the case closed, the information may become public. However, no one bothers to try to obtain that information. In other locales, that would be a matter of contacting their records department and requesting a copy of the case file. In the smaller locales, you would probably get raised eyebrows and questioning looks as to why you would want that. My guess is the reports would have much information anyway. You'd probably see this - "Case closed - Death by drowning". It's basically a lack of understanding. And it probably won't change because it just doesn't happen often enough, which is a good thing.

I'm also going to venture a guess that we're not getting the type of reports we've been given in the past because people are having their feelings hurt by the speculation that occurs in those threads. Rather than seeing it as a constructive process for those of us still doing this activity, they see it as a lynching of those involved. So better to keep quiet rather than put themselves in the spotlight.

 

[Cave Diver]

Only issue I see is that local sheriff's have put the smackdown on cave diving historically, IE the Jackson Co. and Gilchrist Co. cave diving bans. Specifically the Jackson Co one, from what I understand that was heavily influenced by the Sheriff. I haven't heard as much about the Gilchrist one. Unfortunately, in these places, a little ass kissing might be mandatory.

That was my first thought as well.

 

[rjack321]

Sounds like the group that really has the power (cave divers) are giving the power to the "authorities".

Since cave divers are the ones getting the bodies, perhaps cave divers should be calling the shots?

Power? What power?

Do you see lots of police officers posting facts about rape, murder, or suicide investigations on the internet? You think that would be a good idea to allow people to learn from and avoid rapes, murders, or suicides?

Underwater or not, an unexplained death is a homicide until demonstrated otherwise and needs to follow evidentiary standards. You can't just do "investigations" on the side.

 

[diverdoug1]

It is unfortunate that cave diving does not have an investigating body like the FAA for aviation. Which is charged with determining the circumstances of accidents. Although as a conservative libertarian, the last thing I want to see is MORE goverment intrusion on us :sanctum:

 

[PfcAJ]

Power? What power?

Do you see lots of police officers posting facts about rape, murder, or suicide investigations on the internet? You think that would be a good idea to allow people to learn from and avoid rapes, murders, or suicides?

Underwater or not, an unexplained death is a homicide until demonstrated otherwise and needs to follow evidentiary standards. You can't just do "investigations" on the side.

Until its ruled not a homicide. Then what? Lately, we've been getting a big fat zero. Last I checked, none of the deaths have been ruled a homicide... Hrmm...

The FAA seems to be able to come up with a way to report wtf happened in aviation accidents. Maybe we should mirror them, but without the government intervention?

 

[rjack321]

Until its ruled not a homicide. Then what? Lately, we've been getting a big fat zero. Last I checked, none of the deaths have been ruled a homicide... Hrmm...

The FAA seems to be able to come up with a way to report wtf happened in aviation accidents. Maybe we should mirror them, but without the government intervention?

Homicide is not murder, its just the death of someone by another person which may or may not be due to a criminal act. Its my understanding that all deaths are investigated as homicides until some other causality is found. In other words investigations have to assume the worst.

As noble as your personal investigation efforts may be, you need government intervention in order to legally justify access to personal records, and to address privacy as well as disclosure issues. Basically an entire investigation is driven towards some sort of societal good (fewer plane crashes etc). Government is the keeper of that, not some group of individuals.

Cave diving is adamantly opposed to government (broader societal intervention) hence we have no investigations. You can't open up some parts of dive safety to societal scrutiny without opening up the whole can of worms.

Good luck getting CE certification for cave diving lol.

 

[CamG]

Greetings fellow cave divers this is a super charged topic that is also alive and well on the CDF as many of you know.
It saddens me to think that in our day A.A. has come to its current state.
It is quite possible that it is going to take a evolution of sort to change the current system to one that is up to date and provide valuable information.

As many of you have witnessed some fatalities have lead to some serious critical comments from family / friends of deceased and divers who are trying to speculate on issues that lead to the incident.
In our time of the legal implications it has become "politically correct" to avoid all chances of legal obligation in any suit.
Thus the silence we suffer in the light of current events.

I knew the deceased and would wish his spouse and family no more pain they have been through enough.
However Bill was a cave diver and we are cave divers and if a factual non-character demeaning report could be available, WHAT HARM IS IT?
We all know what can happen from little to no information, just take a look at the Vortex incident which has evolved into a nightmare.
Some times a prompt report of the facts prevents a storm of speculation and false statements.

Are we all being selfish for wanting to know?
We are trained because of A.A. that was done in the past!
Have we evolved beyond the use of A.A.? Are you CRAZY?
There are volumes of internet chatter on the speed of divers entering Tech / overhead environments pushing the realm of training verses experience.
There has never been a more critical time for A.A. to point out some of the pit falls of the environments we are diving!

I have said my peace, if it were up to me and it was my accident I would wish the facts to be made known. If I made a mistake then put it in CAPITAL LETTERS and let it be known so someone else can not make it!
I am not trying to be nasty but come on people!

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

 

[deepstops]

Seems like the last several have been secrets, guess we don't need to know what happened.

And this is why all the people who say "STFU and wait for the official report" seriously annoy me. I've seen maybe three "official" reports in 17 years of diving.....