Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[ronbeau]

IMHO I think both sides have valid points. I was lucky to have a LDS that although small has among its members a course director, a fully certified tech instructor and a master diver that has been at it so long that he is rust colored, but although he no longer actively instructs will take a new diver aside either in the shop, pool or in the water to help teach them a few tricks.

Being a small shop, the owner and his wife have other full time jobs and opened this shop out of a love of diving, not as an outlet to churn out divers. I cannot agree with those who feel that BCDs with intergrated weight systems, wireless computers or low volume masks are somehow a sellout to commercialism and that the only way to make a "real diver" is to put them through the same rite of passage that existed in the fabled "old days." In my field we have surgeons who are disgusted that residents are no longer required in many training centers to stay up 40 hours at a time on call nights, but have mandated sleep periods. "They'll never make good surgeons unless they suffer like we did!" Horse poop. They complain that with intestinal staplers, the art of hand sewing the bowel will be lost and what are the new surgeons going to do if they ever find themselves in a situation where there are no staplers. The same thing that you and I will do if we can't find our car. Staplers are ubiquitous and turn a 10 min task into a 20 sec task.

In medicine as in diving we progress with the times. On the other hand, IMHO there is no excuse for a person to become a fully certified OW diver on a cruise ship in 2 days and in some of our local "big box" scuba shops I have had divers brag that they achieved their advanced open water training with only 15 dives. This is "Pay PADI" at its worst. I was certified in August of 2008 and have only 40 dives so far. I dive every chance I get. I have both Nitrox and Peak Performance Buoyancy certs and will get my Adv. when the water warms enough in our area to dive in our "deep" site. I know that I don't know very much and that is what keeps me safe.

Time and technology marches on. The primary responsibility of maintaining standards falls to the instructor and the diver because that is where the rubber meets the road. If you are worried that standards are slipping then why not get on the teaching path and pass on your views and skills to the next generation of divers. Grumbling about the "good old days" is meaningless.

Your case is so well reasoned and stated the moderators should make it a sticky.

I have worked in the industry for the last 36 years and we face the same type of issues. The difference is people may become extremely inefficient if we screw up or at worst the company may go under if we totally screw up but people usually don't die as a result.

I have seen the results of IT people working around the lock and it is not pretty. I could never understand why hospitals would want a doctor who has not slept in over 24 hours working on a patient in the ER.

I can understand this in a war zone where there is no othe choice but not in a regular hospital setting.

I also feel the same way about our LDS. Five out of 6 people that own it work full time jobs in addition to working in the LDS and the sixth person was a high school teacher until he retired not too long ago.

The LDS has two NAUI course directors and three other instructors. They are all very patient and will put in extra effort for anyone that really wants to learn but will not pass anyone if they don't meet their standards.

 

[Thalassamania]

While I agree with the spirit of much of what you say, you make some assumptions that are simply not correct.

... I cannot agree with those who feel that BCDs with intergrated weight systems, wireless computers or low volume masks are somehow a sellout to commercialism and that the only way to make a "real diver" is to put them through the same rite of passage that existed in the fabled "old days."

Integrated weight BCDs can pose a very significant safey hazard to a diver who is in a situation where his or her survival is depended on being able to remove the rig and maintain buoyancy contol (e.g., entanglement in a fishing net). I happen to like wireless computers, but I would not trust one for any type of diving that has a ceiling. Who ever said that low volume masks some kind of a recent invention? I've been using a low volume mask since the early 1960s when I got my first Lince Cateye. So let's not confuse some real performance and safety concerns with, "the same rite of passage that existed in the fabled 'old days.'" That is a complaint that, in most of the cases I'm familiary with is simply unwarranted and only serves to muddy the discussion.

In my field we have surgeons who are disgusted that residents are no longer required in many training centers to stay up 40 hours at a time on call nights, but have mandated sleep periods. "They'll never make good surgeons unless they suffer like we did!" Horse poop. They complain that with intestinal staplers, the art of hand sewing the bowel will be lost and what are the new surgeons going to do if they ever find themselves in a situation where there are no staplers. The same thing that you and I will do if we can't find our car. Staplers are ubiquitous and turn a 10 min task into a 20 sec task.

I agree with you there. But here we are dealing with human performance questions that are better understood now, had sewing ... I have mixed feelings. I imagine that there are circumstances in which a very delicate hand sewing job would be superior to staples (perhaps anastomoses of the vena cava comes to mind from my old days of doing heart lung transplants in dogs) but for other applications (I've never done a bowel) I'm guessing that stapes are faster and hold every bit as well.

In medicine as in diving we progress with the times. On the other hand, IMHO there is no excuse for a person to become a fully certified OW diver on a cruise ship in 2 days and in some of our local "big box" scuba shops I have had divers brag that they achieved their advanced open water training with only 15 dives. This is "Pay PADI" at its worst. I was certified in August of 2008 and have only 40 dives so far. I dive every chance I get. I have both Nitrox and Peak Performance Buoyancy certs and will get my Adv. when the water warms enough in our area to dive in our "deep" site. I know that I don't know very much and that is what keeps me safe.

Sometimes what can kill or injure is not just what you don't know ... it's what you've never considered (e.g., the possible problems with a weight integrated BC).

Time and technology marches on. The primary responsibility of maintaining standards falls to the instructor and the diver because that is where the rubber meets the road. If you are worried that standards are slipping then why not get on the teaching path and pass on your views and skills to the next generation of divers. Grumbling about the "good old days" is meaningless.

I really don't see anyone grumblng about the good old days. I do see some highly experienced instructors pointing out that some things that are tauted as advances are, in fact, steps backward. That is quite a different thing.

Your case is so well reasoned and stated the moderators should make it a sticky. ...

I really could not disagree more strongly.

 

[The Chairman]

Integrated weight BCDs can pose a very significant safey hazard to a diver who is in a situation where his or her survival is depended on being able to remove the rig and maintain buoyancy contol (e.g., entanglement in a fishing net).

Like I said before Thal, this is such a simple skill to learn. I can't believe that somehow my OW students can accomplish this with alacrity and you still maintain that it poses some kind of a heinous hazard. Have there even been any injuries attributed to integrated weights?

Last November, I was diving with one of my former students. It had been four years since they had hit the water, and they wanted a "refresher". We covered a lot on the drive down and the boat ride out. He decided that he wanted to run the skills at depth. No problem, I wanted to see how they "stuck". I was VERY impressed that after so much time out of the water, he kept the BC between him and the surface, and in a current! I think that was dive #15. It's just not that hard, unless you have defeated yourself before you even start it!

I simply LOVE the advent of on-line learning of the academics as well as other improvements in the sport. The regs breathe better, especially at depth, the BCs are way more convenient, the masks and fins are better designed (though I admit to still using Jet Fins for 40 years now).

 

[Thalassamania]

How about real world? Now let's see him do it while the tank is tangled in monofiliment netting, one hand is occupied with a knife while he's wearing a full wetsuit with three finger mits or a drysuit, and 25 (or more) lbs of lead in the BC. Anyone can do what you describe when there's not much buoyancy difference involved and he or she has two free hands.

I might be able to ... but then I can shift my buoyancy 15 lbs on a full exhalation and I am reasonably comfortable working with my lungs empty ... but that's not real world either.

 

[The Chairman]

How about real world?

Thal, that was in the REAL ocean with a real current. I understand not wanting to dive beyond your skill level, but it's just not that hard to do.

 

[Thalassamania]

You guys (and me now) don't dive in the "real ocean" that I'm taking about. As Tim Cahill described it, "you flop off a boat like a dead tuna into gin clear water that is the temperature of a urine sample.

But then you know that ... once again we see NetDoc not addressing the questions, just falling back into his old and rather worn out "moving target" gambit.

 

[The Chairman]

You guys (and me now) don't dive in the "real ocean" that I'm taking about.

Why is it NOT the real ocean? Why should everyone have to rely on the same protocols that are used by a few divers elsewhere? Should we require all OW students to carry three lights, a reel, a gap reel and learn light signals just because a group of cavers need to do that? No. We tell the OW student to stay the HELL OUT of the caves until they receive proper education and we also tell them to get some experience first!!! There is simply no need for an OW student to follow those kinds of rules as they won't make their dive significantly SAFER. In fact, the addition of all that gear would add a level of task loading that I don't think the newly minted OW student should be exposed to yet. It would create a safety hazard in it's own right.

Almost EVERY agency includes as a part of it's OW regimen, a section that applies to diving in locations with different needs than where you learned Scuba Diving. In short, they tell us to SEEK ADDITIONAL TRAINING! Someone who learned in the warm subtropics has no need to master a dry suit unless they venture north. Yet, down in the Keys a few years ago, a very experienced cold water diver lost their life, because they didn't remove a bunch of weight along with that 9 mil. Perhaps they should have asked for some advice? The skills that they learned in your "real ocean" Thal, ultimately killed them in our bathtub. It's the testosterone laden beating of the chest about "real divers" and "real oceans" that get people in trouble. This is not some competition where you are judged by how deep, dark or cold you have been. In fact, as instructors we should be encouraging people to simply HAVE FUN and discouraging those psycho antics that push people into areas that they simply don't need to be in.

As for the character assassination, I refuse to comment any further on your brazen ad hominem. You should really be ashamed of yourself. Let's stick to the SUBJECT of the OP, shall we?

 

[Thalassamania]

Why is it NOT the real ocean? Why should everyone have to rely on the same protocols that are used by a few divers elsewhere? Should we require all OW students to carry three lights, a reel, a gap reel and learn light signals just because a group of cavers need to do that? No. We tell the OW student to stay the HELL OUT of the caves until they receive proper education and we also tell them to get some experience first!!! There is simply no need for an OW student to follow those kinds of rules as they won't make their dive significantly SAFER. In fact, the addition of all that gear would add a level of task loading that I don't think the newly minted OW student should be exposed to yet. It would create a safety hazard in it's own right.

An accurate statment but it's an unconnected thought ... you can't simply tell people to stay out of a monofiliment gillnet.

Almost EVERY agency includes as a part of it's OW regimen, a section that applies to diving in locations with different needs than where you learned Scuba Diving. In short, they tell us to SEEK ADDITIONAL TRAINING! Someone who learned in the warm subtropics has no need to master a dry suit unless they venture north. Yet, down in the Keys a few years ago, a very experienced cold water diver lost their life, because they didn't remove a bunch of weight along with that 9 mil. Perhaps they should have asked for some advice? The skills that they learned in your "real ocean" Thal, ultimately killed them in our bathtub. It's the testosterone laden beating of the chest about "real divers" and "real oceans" that get people in trouble. This is not some competition where you are judged by how deep, dark or cold you have been. In fact, as instructors we should be encouraging people to simply HAVE FUN and discouraging those psycho antics that push people into areas that they simply don't need to be in.

What on earth are you talking about?

As for the character assassination, I refuse to comment any further on your brazen ad hominem. You should really be ashamed of yourself. Let's stick to the SUBJECT of the OP, shall we?

What!?! I made no ad hominem. I pointed out that you wander all over the place and fail to focus on the points raised, and supported that contension with someone else who has the same complaint concerning the way in which you go at things. That's not an ad hominem. Try to address the issues, I said:

"How about real world? Now let's see him do it while the tank is tangled in monofiliment netting, one hand is occupied with a knife while he's wearing a full wetsuit with three finger mits or a drysuit, and 25 (or more) lbs of lead in the BC. Anyone can do what you describe when there's not much buoyancy difference involved and he or she has two free hands."

... and you wandered off into requiring eveyone to carry cave diving equipment and some bizzare incident in which a northern diver neglected to alter his or her weighting to adjust for a thinner suit.

 

[The Chairman]

An accurate statment but it's an unconnected thought ... you can't simply tell people to stay out of a monofiliment gillnet.

Sure you can. Gill nets are not allowed in Florida Waters. Even when they were allowed, I can't think of ever hearing about ANYONE caught in one. Perhaps it's one of those solutions in search of a problem? It's nothing more than an appeal to probability where none has been established.

What on earth are you talking about?

That speaks volumes.

What!?! I made no ad hominem.

Please, there is no need for intellectual dishonesty. The readers can make up their minds if you discounted my points based on your feelings from a previous discussion with you, or if you simply stuck to the discussion.

 

[Thalassamania]

An ad hominem is a logical fallacy wherein one asserts that another's argument is wrong purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the other person. This was not what occurred.

You made a claim:

Last November, I was diving with one of my former students. It had been four years since they had hit the water, and they wanted a "refresher". We covered a lot on the drive down and the boat ride out. He decided that he wanted to run the skills at depth. No problem, I wanted to see how they "stuck". I was VERY impressed that after so much time out of the water, he kept the BC between him and the surface, and in a current! I think that was dive #15. It's just not that hard, unless you have defeated yourself before you even start it!

And then went off into irrelevancies:

I simply LOVE the advent of on-line learning of the academics as well as other improvements in the sport. The regs breathe better, especially at depth, the BCs are way more convenient, the masks and fins are better designed (though I admit to still using Jet Fins for 40 years now).

I made several points:

How about real world? Now let's see him do it while the tank is tangled in monofiliment netting, one hand is occupied with a knife while he's wearing a full wetsuit with three finger mits or a drysuit, and 25 (or more) lbs of lead in the BC. Anyone can do what you describe when there's not much buoyancy difference involved and he or she has two free hands.

Thal, that was in the REAL ocean with a real current. I understand not wanting to dive beyond your skill level, but it's just not that hard to do.

You ignored what I had said and instead of responding insulted me, so ... trying to ignore your insult and stay on track ... I quoted Tim Cahill:

You guys (and me now) don't dive in the "real ocean" that I'm taking about. As Tim Cahill described it, "you flop off a boat like a dead tuna into gin clear water that is the temperature of a urine sample.

... and suggested that you doing the moving target thing you'd been accused of in the past (note, that is not an ad hominem):

But then you know that ... once again we see NetDoc not addressing the questions, just falling back into his old and rather worn out "moving target" gambit.

But you still will not deal with the questions on the table, now you rush over to some tomfoolery concerning cave diving equipment, that has nothing whatso ever to do with the question on the table which remains, "can your student do the skill as described?" And then you get yourself all wrapped up in some strange chest beating contest ... all by yourself and you have the nerve to accuse me of an ad hominem. If it were not for the link you provided I'd have assumed that you had no idea whatsoever of what an ad hominem is.

Why is it NOT the real ocean? Why should everyone have to rely on the same protocols that are used by a few divers elsewhere? Should we require all OW students to carry three lights, a reel, a gap reel and learn light signals just because a group of cavers need to do that? No. We tell the OW student to stay the HELL OUT of the caves until they receive proper education and we also tell them to get some experience first!!! There is simply no need for an OW student to follow those kinds of rules as they won't make their dive significantly SAFER. In fact, the addition of all that gear would add a level of task loading that I don't think the newly minted OW student should be exposed to yet. It would create a safety hazard in it's own right.

Almost EVERY agency includes as a part of it's OW regimen, a section that applies to diving in locations with different needs than where you learned Scuba Diving. In short, they tell us to SEEK ADDITIONAL TRAINING! Someone who learned in the warm subtropics has no need to master a dry suit unless they venture north. Yet, down in the Keys a few years ago, a very experienced cold water diver lost their life, because they didn't remove a bunch of weight along with that 9 mil. Perhaps they should have asked for some advice? The skills that they learned in your "real ocean" Thal, ultimately killed them in our bathtub. It's the testosterone laden beating of the chest about "real divers" and "real oceans" that get people in trouble. This is not some competition where you are judged by how deep, dark or cold you have been. In fact, as instructors we should be encouraging people to simply HAVE FUN and discouraging those psycho antics that push people into areas that they simply don't need to be in.

As for the character assassination, I refuse to comment any further on your brazen ad hominem. You should really be ashamed of yourself. Let's stick to the SUBJECT of the OP, shall we?

I was on topic, I was pushing the issue, you were the one calling names.

Sure you can. Gill nets are not allowed in Florida Waters. Even when they were allowed, I can't think of ever hearing about ANYONE caught in one. Perhaps it's one of those solutions in search of a problem? It's nothing more than an appeal to probability where none has been established. That speaks volumes. Please, there is no need for intellectual dishonesty. The readers can make up their minds if you discounted my points based on your feelings from a previous discussion with you, or if you simply stuck to the discussion.

Gill nets drift world wide, the currents do not respect state or even federal regulations, and in any case there are lots of things that a diver can get tangled up in besides gill nets. But you still have not answered the question that was on the table, all you've done is call me names and expose your ignorance as to what an ad hominem is. It's considered very bad form to call people names that you don't understand.