Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[Thalassamania]

You're missing the point, it is demonstrable that risks are significantly decreased with longer courses. Sure computers have slowed ascents, and that's good ... but it is not the issue.

As far as the RSTC is concerned. What I described is exactly the way in which the RSTC standards were prepared. There was no thought given to anything except cutting deals to include agencies.

 

[leapfrog]

You don't have to have the skills of John McEnroe to enjoy a game of tennis and to be relatively safe while doing so.

Mr. Chairman, when the racquet falls out of someboy's hand, they don't panic and put themselves in a potentially life threatening situation. (Except perhaps, Mr. McEnroe himself )

I don't need to be a certified mechanic to drive a car either.

No, sir, you don't. However it is advisable to have your car serviced properly and be alert enough to know if the tire pressure is low.

I don't even have to understand the theory of the internal combustion engine and the thermal kinetics of the braking system to operate my car safely.

Agreed. However, knowing under which weather conditions or traffic conditions we may put ourselves at risk or what to do if our brakes fade on us suddenly, might save a life.

As you pointed out, just following your computer will make you a safer diver with slower ascents and timed safety stops.

One of the good things about PADI is we are still teaching tables although OTOH we continue to teach 60fpm and "the" safety stop instead of 30fpm and deep stops if and where appropriate. I sincerely hope that PADI will change that sooner than later. It's good to learn to dive WITHOUT a computer. Man over the machine. I have had PDCs conk out on me at depth leading a group. Had the plan in my head, depth gauge, SPG and a watch.....easy.

 

[The Chairman]

As far as the RSTC is concerned. What I described is exactly the way in which the RSTC standards were prepared. There was no thought given to anything except cutting deals to include agencies.

That's a bold statement and in no way reflects their mission statement: The World Recreational Scuba Training Council (WRSTC) is dedicated to the worldwide safety of the recreational diving public. As such, one of the WRSTC's primary goals is the development of worldwide minimum training standards. The establishment of globally recognized and implemented standards is a valuable asset in addressing local and national regulatory issues.

While it was dubious on their part to have created these minimum standards without either your or my input, I think your attempt to smear their mission is misguided at best and self serving at worst. Somehow, I can't find your "exact" reasoning in their literature at all. These people are either consummate liars, or you're manufacturing motives to suit your needs. I appreciate that you are passionate about this issue, but you don't have to put words or motives in the WRSTC's mouth.

I think it's best for the interested reader to peruse their website, WRSTC :: World Recreational Scuba Training Council, and make up their minds for themselves.

 

[The Chairman]

Mr. Chairman, when the racquet falls out of someboy's hand, they don't panic and put themselves in a potentially life threatening situation. (Except perhaps, Mr. McEnroe himself )

So I need to have the skills of Jacques Cousteau before I dare venture into the water? Your observation is true for the beginner as well as the seasoned veteran. The question is: Does the RSTC provide inadequate training standards? I know that many want to make this about PADI, but it's really about the WRSTC and the RSTC.

No, sir, you don't. However it is advisable to have your car serviced properly and be alert enough to know if the tire pressure is low. Agreed. However, knowing under which weather conditions or traffic conditions we may put ourselves at risk or what to do if our brakes fade on us suddenly, might save a life.

I would suggest that far more lives would be saved if texting were disabled on all phones. This is the real problem in my eyes: we focus on the minor issues.

One of the good things about PADI is we are still teaching tables

My fault against PADI is not teaching students how to use a tool that most divers end up relying on.

although OTOH we continue to teach 60fpm and "the" safety stop instead of 30fpm and deep stops if and where appropriate. I sincerely hope that PADI will change that sooner than later. It's good to learn to dive WITHOUT a computer. Man over the machine. I have had PDCs conk out on me at depth leading a group. Had the plan in my head, depth gauge, SPG and a watch.....easy.

So, you feel that the most basic student needs to have the skills that YOU have as a professional and a leader? That's the issue here. We have this caveman/survivalist mentality that dictates that we must be able to overcome all obstacles. Rather than rely on a stinking lighter, we feel we have to be able to rub two sticks together to make fire. Just be smart and bring a second lighter! Teach your student to simply ascend should their computer crap out. They can either learn tables quickly or obtain another computer.

 

[leapfrog]

So I need to have the skills of Jacques Cousteau before I dare venture into the water?

I don't remember saying or suggesting that.

The question is: Does the RSTC provide inadequate training standards? I know that many want to make this about PADI, but it's really about the WRSTC and the RSTC.

WRSTC/RSTC training standards are "the lowest common denominator". To whom are you asking the question "Does the RSTC provide inadequate training standards?" To me? If you ask me I would say RSTC has developed training standards to cover minimums. I don't consider myself to be an authority to be able to state whether they are adequate or not. What I am saying is that there are certain things lacking from the OWD syllabus and that should be added or modified, always in my humble opinion.

I would suggest that far more lives would be saved if texting were disabled on all phones.

It's a valid opinion. Since it would be difficult if not impossible to disable the texting, it's important to explain to drivers why it is so inherently dangerous to text while at the wheel.

This is the real problem in my eyes: we focus on the minor issues.

I've obviously missed something here

My fault against PADI is not teaching students how to use a tool that most divers end up relying on.

As instructors we are allowed to bring PDCs into the syllabus so in fact if it isn't taught, the instructor is at fault not PADI. Another thing is whether it should be spelt out in large capital letters and made clearly mandatory in the course outline and standards so that some of our minimalist colleagues don't skip it.

So, you feel that the most basic student needs to have the skills that YOU have as a professional and a leader?

I think they should have the knowledge to be able to develop that skill even if they don't become professionals.

That's the issue here. We have this caveman/survivalist mentality that dictates that we must be able to overcome all obstacles.

I admit it. I'm a caveman. My ethos is about overcoming all obstacles.

Rather than rely on a stinking lighter, we feel we have to be able to rub two sticks together to make fire. Just be smart and bring a second lighter! Teach your student to simply ascend should their computer crap out. They can either learn tables quickly or obtain another computer.

I do teach redundancy. The problem with ascending should their computer "crap out" is that they may be far from the boat or point of exfiltration and they may well ascend too quickly. Since they are being trained to dive with a buddy but without a DM, the PDC problem could (although unlikely becuase we assume the other diver has a PDC that still works) turn into a missing buddy pair with one or two cases of DCI.

 

[sweatfrog]

As far as the RSTC is concerned. What I described is exactly the way in which the RSTC standards were prepared. There was no thought given to anything except cutting deals to include agencies.

When the RSTC started, they did try and include all of the agencies. When they started trying to put together standards, the Y and NAUI wanted to include buddy breathing and swimming. The other agencies compromised on those skills for some other stuff (that I don't remember) to accomodate those agencies. When the time came to impliment said standards, the Y and NAUI pulled out of the RSTC, even though changes had been made to accomodate them.

If that's what you mean by "cutting deals" then I agree. However, deals are cut all the time and for them to back out after concessions had been made for them had to have been a slap in the face, to the other agencies.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't remember saying or suggesting that.

Its the use of the absurd to illustrate a point. One would have to wonder at which point a diver stops being a danger to themselves? One could make the argument that JC could handle a missing reg better than we could, ergo we have no business being in the water.

It's a comfort level that is different for each and every diver, EVEN WHEN skills are mastered. There are a few who would restrict this wonderful experience to those able to demonstrate superior skills rather than making adjustments (like the PDC) to accommodate many more divers with a lower, albeit adequate skill level for the dives they are making.

 

[Diver0001]

I have been reading posts which talk about the simplification of PADI and other certification courses over the years. I though my PADI OW & AOW course were fantastic, but it makes me wonder---

Have new divers like myself missed important and useful information that was taught pre-1983? What has changed?

Nope. You haven't missed anything. A lot of old-timers (like me) tend to romanticise the "old days" and some even "remember" things that simply didn't happen.

Your open water course was virtually identical to the open water course given in 1983. Your advanced course isn't but the differences aren't nearly as enormous as the "internet heros" would like you to believe they were.

However.... your instructor likely had more diving experience than instructors in 1983 had.

Your instructor likely has *much* more teaching experience than instructors in 1983 had

Your equipment is better... and not a little bit.... it's MUCH MUCH better than in 1983. For one thing, everyone has an octopus now..... we used to learn buddy breathing... not because we were all better divers... but because 1/2 of the divers didn't have an octopus!!!!

Information diseminiation (via internet, for example) is unimaginably better than in 1983. You now have access to many more divers and better quality information than ever.

And finally, local infrastructure is generally better. Divers in 2008 are taken seriously and things like entry points etc. are made safe. In 1983 your chances of having an accident getting in and out of the water were as good as your chances of having an accident *in* the water.

Dumbing down? No. The theory hasn't been dumbed down. It was always minimal. The theory for advanced has been "clipped up" more but the open water and rescue courses (the main "diving" courses in the PADI system) are virtually unaltered.

R..

 

[Walter]

There are a few who would restrict this wonderful experience to those able to demonstrate superior skills rather than making adjustments (like the PDC) to accommodate many more divers with a lower, albeit adequate skill level for the dives they are making.

There's no reason to either restrict the experience nor accomodate lower skill levels. The higher skill levels are easy to reach if the agencies and instructors do a better job. As for the charge of elitism, it's total bunk. They way folks you label as elitists advocate teaching is easier, especially for those with less confidence than the more common approach. It allows folks to learn to dive who drop out of the get it over with fast classes. I think the elitist label is being tossed in the wrong direction. Furthermore, we're not advocating a mandate, merely explaining that there is an easier, better way. If folks prefer to go the faster, harder route, that's perfectly OK with us.

 

[Walter]

That's a bold statement and in no way reflects their mission statement: The World Recreational Scuba Training Council (WRSTC) is dedicated to the worldwide safety of the recreational diving public. As such, one of the WRSTC's primary goals is the development of worldwide minimum training standards. The establishment of globally recognized and implemented standards is a valuable asset in addressing local and national regulatory issues.

Did you actually read and think about that statement. All they are saying is they are trying to prevent governments getting involved in regulating dive training. I believe that. I do not believe they have done anything ever to make diving safer.