Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[kathydee]

I really loved my PADI OW instructor—A Belgium guy who was gentle but quite strict and detail orientated. The OW course material did suggest it was presenting enough information to generate a competent independent diver. However, there was no effort by the instructor to actually inspire independence & consequently, after finishing my course, I felt very dependant upon DM’s & DI & LDS (I think he probably did me a favor by subtly suggesting dependence without further instruction. Perhaps diving with DM’s as a continuation of instruction is something that should be mandatory for the first post-OW cert dives?).

Dependency upon DM’s worked, till I left the “security” of reputable shops and ventured to cheaper ones. Here a few DM showed semi-poor judgment. (Which suggested I actually had skills to notice the quality of their judgment & made me realize the need for more knowledge & independence.)

The same Belgium instructor made much more of an effort to inspire independence in the PADI AOW course. Near the end of my AOW course, my DI allowed us to lead our underwater navigation portion (and he swam in tow)--which was helpful in establishing underwater confidence.

Have heard some PADI instructors allow AOW students do the UW feature navigation portion of their course alone with their buddy. If dive conditions permit, I think a semi-supervised solo mission is an excellent opportunity to get a taste of independence & began to take personal responsibility.
I think some of the reputable shops/staff and easy dive sites I have been to can support new or inexperienced periodic divers – (but the diver may well be gambling with his/her life by relying on a stranger’s competence and not gathering their own skill

Looking forward to taking the rescue course this winter to build more skills, confidence and competence. The Los Angeles Underwater Instructors Association course looks very comprehensive.

For $450 you gather OW/AOW/Rescue/First Aid & CPR??? Think I’ll pay about $1,000+/- to PADI & Red Cross for a similiar education.

Is there an organization like LAUIA in the San Francisco Area? Wouldn't mind re-learning some of the intro stuff in relation to local conditions before getting my feet wet in cold water.

 

[Thalassamania]

Call Tim Tarry, (805)584-0144 up in Mill Valley.

 

[boulderjohn]

I just got back from a week away in which I squeezed in a fair amount of diving. Because I was the only diver on our trip, I had to do my customary insta-buddy routine each day I dived, and I had an experience which reminded me of this thread.

One day my only option was to join a shop owner/instructor (equivalent of a course director, although I don't think his agencies used that term), another instructor from his shop, and two of their students working on advanced certifications. On the long trip to the dive site, the owner/instructor told me all about himself and his shop. He does certifications for two agencies, neither of which I will identify, although I will say that both are among the oldest and most established in the industry. Both are older than PADI. He told me he does not like PADI, and he talked about his pride in doing things the old fashioned way. He thought he was teaching for the two best agencies in the world because of their high standards.

We started the first dive with about 2,900 PSI in our AL 80's. I was trying to focus on the marine life, but I was aware of a lot of flailing around me. The female student was particularly active, waving her arms around in an attempt to control her buoyancy. I tried to mind my own business, but the shop owner came to me and signaled that he wanted me to buddy with the woman while he took the other two divers up, as they were very low on air. (Note that one of them was also an instructor.) I looked at the woman's gauges and saw she had 1,000 PSI. We were at 64 feet, and I figured that at the rate she was consuming air, I had to get her started up right away. At safety stop depth she was still waving her arms. I got that under control and held onto her BCD to control her depth. When we surfaced, she had 500 PSI left.

I had 1,750.

On the second dive I paid more attention to them. I watched the other instructor literally walk on the bottom while looking at some stuff. He lost his balance at one point and fell over backwards, crashing on his tank. When the owner, instructor, and the other student headed to the surface, I went off with the woman again. I worked on her swimming style, and she seemed glad to get some instruction. She started doing much better with her breathing. When she was at 1,000 PSI and starting to struggle with her buoyancy again, I saw she was underweighted. I gave her some of my weight, and she was fine. When we surfaced, she told me this was the first time she had ever been in salt water and did not know how much weight she needed. I asked her if she had done a weight check, and she did not know what I was talking about. I did one with her right then, and the extra weight I had given her was just about right.

I buddied with her from the start on the third dive. She started with the proper amount of weight, and we worked on her swimming form. She got a pretty good dive out of it. I bet her SAC rate was cut in half compared to her first dive.

I do not mention the names of the agencies for a reason. I think it was a coincidence. It could have been any agency. I know I would never pass a student through OW with the skills I saw the female student using, and I would have had serious problems passing that second instructor for an OW certification without some serious buoyancy work as well. Before becoming an instructor, I was a DM and then an AI for about a dozen different PADI instructors, and every one of those would have done a better job than was done with these people. On the other hand, I have seen other divers with similar issues who were trained by other PADI shops, so I cannot claim that my agency does a better job than their agency or any other agency.

Before I left on this trip, I made an extremely lengthy post in this thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3849883-post194.html) in which I documented the difficulty professional education has controlling the quality of teachers who have many times the training, the continuing education, and the quality control procedures any scuba agency could ever provide. I asked how we can expect a scuba agency to do a better job than is done in professional education. I did not get a response.

I wonder if I could get one now.

 

[Standingbear56]

I just got back from a week away in which I squeezed in a fair amount of diving. Because I was the only diver on our trip, I had to do my customary insta-buddy routine each day I dived, and I had an experience which reminded me of this thread.

One day my only option was to join a shop owner/instructor (equivalent of a course director, although I don't think his agencies used that term), another instructor from his shop, and two of their students working on advanced certifications. On the long trip to the dive site, the owner/instructor told me all about himself and his shop. He does certifications for two agencies, neither of which I will identify, although I will say that both are among the oldest and most established in the industry. Both are older than PADI. He told me he does not like PADI, and he talked about his pride in doing things the old fashioned way. He thought he was teaching for the two best agencies in the world because of their high standards.

We started the first dive with about 2,900 PSI in our AL 80's. I was trying to focus on the marine life, but I was aware of a lot of flailing around me. The female student was particularly active, waving her arms around in an attempt to control her buoyancy. I tried to mind my own business, but the shop owner came to me and signaled that he wanted me to buddy with the woman while he took the other two divers up, as they were very low on air. (Note that one of them was also an instructor.) I looked at the woman's gauges and saw she had 1,000 PSI. We were at 64 feet, and I figured that at the rate she was consuming air, I had to get her started up right away. At safety stop depth she was still waving her arms. I got that under control and held onto her BCD to control her depth. When we surfaced, she had 500 PSI left.

I had 1,750.

On the second dive I paid more attention to them. I watched the other instructor literally walk on the bottom while looking at some stuff. He lost his balance at one point and fell over backwards, crashing on his tank. When the owner, instructor, and the other student headed to the surface, I went off with the woman again. I worked on her swimming style, and she seemed glad to get some instruction. She started doing much better with her breathing. When she was at 1,000 PSI and starting to struggle with her buoyancy again, I saw she was underweighted. I gave her some of my weight, and she was fine. When we surfaced, she told me this was the first time she had ever been in salt water and did not know how much weight she needed. I asked her if she had done a weight check, and she did not know what I was talking about. I did one with her right then, and the extra weight I had given her was just about right.

I buddied with her from the start on the third dive. She started with the proper amount of weight, and we worked on her swimming form. She got a pretty good dive out of it. I bet her SAC rate was cut in half compared to her first dive.

I do not mention the names of the agencies for a reason. I think it was a coincidence. It could have been any agency. I know I would never pass a student through OW with the skills I saw the female student using, and I would have had serious problems passing that second instructor for an OW certification without some serious buoyancy work as well. Before becoming an instructor, I was a DM and then an AI for about a dozen different PADI instructors, and every one of those would have done a better job than was done with these people. On the other hand, I have seen other divers with similar issues who were trained by other PADI shops, so I cannot claim that my agency does a better job than their agency or any other agency.

Before I left on this trip, I made an extremely lengthy post in this thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3849883-post194.html) in which I documented the difficulty professional education has controlling the quality of teachers who have many times the training, the continuing education, and the quality control procedures any scuba agency could ever provide. I asked how we can expect a scuba agency to do a better job than is done in professional education. I did not get a response.

I wonder if I could get one now.

Hi Bolderjohn,
Like you, I have seen both good and bad instructors and good and bad students from ALL agencies. Like you also, I would never have passed these students and if the instructors had worked for my dive center, there would have been remedial training and probation for them. Like the instructor you mentioned, many here on SB say how PADI has lowered the standards to the point of no return, yet teaching to the standards of these very same agencies that trash PADI can still produce poor students, like the lady you worked with.
Thus it is the instructor and NOT the agency that makes or breaks the student diver, as I have always said. Since there are bad students from ALL agencies, the problem of enforcing Instructor teaching standards is an across the board problem, as you have stated. An agency may appear to have higher standards on paper, but if an instructor from that agency does not teach to those standards, then those standards are worthless. ALL the agencies fail to keep 100% of their instructors teaching to their standards 100% of the time. Thus they are ALL guilty. Yet according to many, only PADI is responsible for teaching to lower standards. Talk about wearing blinders!!!!!

 

[obx_diver]

kathydeee,

In response to your original post (and I hope this hasn't been repeated too many times in 230+ entries) yes the performance and classroom standards have been simplified and streamlined. But its important to remember that these are the bare minimums. If an INSTRUCTOR, regardless of AGENCY, considers themselves a PROFESSIONAL, they will in addition to continually working to increase their own knowledge and abilities, give their students the ADDITIONAL education they need to be safe. IMHO, this will varry depending on location and dive plan among other things. The student shares in this process. They have the responsibility of asking questions.

God, that sounds pompus. Sorry.

Think of in terms of college classes. Which classes fill up first?
Easy 'A'? Nope.
Smartest Teacher? Not likely.
Teachers that taught students the course requirements they needed, any additional information they needed/wanted, had fun and was passionate about his profession? Possibly.

 

[Walter]

If an INSTRUCTOR, regardless of AGENCY, considers themselves a PROFESSIONAL, they will in addition to continually working to increase their own knowledge and abilities, give their students the ADDITIONAL education they need to be safe.

Interesting. So agencies have no responsibility for quality?

 

[Thalassamania]

Divers can never be "safe." The best they can do is minimize risk ... very different things that require very different outlooks and approaches.

As long as some agencies and some instructors insist on lying to the diving public concerning the risks of diving in general and specifically the risks of diving upon "certification" without leadership personnel there is little or not hope.

 

[-hh]

Hi Bolderjohn,
Like you, I have seen both good and bad instructors and good and bad students from ALL agencies. Like you also, I would never have passed these students and if the instructors had worked for my dive center, there would have been remedial training and probation for them. Like the instructor you mentioned, many here on SB say how PADI has lowered the standards to the point of no return, yet teaching to the standards of these very same agencies that trash PADI can still produce poor students, like the lady you worked with.

While I agree with the general sentiments, there is nevertheless one element of truth in the "Blame PADI" game, which obx_diver alluded to indirectly: it is that PADI is like Microsoft: by being the biggest in the Industry, they are the Industry's leader, regardless of if they want to be or not. As such, whatever PADI decides to do, all the rest can't fail to take notice and adjust themselves accordingly.

GUE did have a chance to be an upstart and game changer, but they chose to avoid the issue by declining to offer an OW-I class, and their opportunity window has now passed.

Thus it is the instructor and NOT the agency that makes or breaks the student diver, as I have always said.

A statement that we all generally agree with, but which when we look at it closer is really a condemnation of the ineffectiveness of the Agencies.

Since there are bad students from ALL agencies, the problem of enforcing Instructor teaching standards is an across the board problem, as you have stated. An agency may appear to have higher standards on paper, but if an instructor from that agency does not teach to those standards, then those standards are worthless. ALL the agencies fail to keep 100% of their instructors teaching to their standards 100% of the time. Thus they are ALL guilty. Yet according to many, only PADI is responsible for teaching to lower standards. Talk about wearing blinders!!!!!

As per above, if PADI were to lead, the rest would be forced to follow. So one question that could be asked is why isn't PADI interested in raising the bar on total quality?

Related to this is that a good friend of mine...now a former Dive Pro, due to a debilitating DCS-II hit while working...had previously spent a couple of years working in the Quality Control department of at "(won't be named) Agency" as a QC investigator of reported violations.

When they found that violations that they had personally investigated and had formally recommended that the Instructor be cut loose had been overruled (the 'bad' instructor was still out teaching), they decided that the QC was a sham and that the lack of professionalism went to the core of that Agency's Leadership. They knew that change from within was futile, so they distanced themselves (ie, they decided to get the {bleep} out).

While I realize that this is a secondhand story, the underlying point is that with behavior like this is present within higher Management & Leadership circles, anyone with true professional and ethical standards are going to self-select themselves to go elsewhere as fast as they can. What we end up with is a bag of snakes running the organization, which will perpetuate until they run the organization into the ground.

And this gets back to boulderjohn's question:

"So, if the world of professional education, with all of its resources, professional training, and close oversight, cannot manage the quality of its instructors, why would any agency be able to do better?"

The basic key to improving any process is its Quality Control feedback loop. In Education, the structure of how to build and measure this is more difficult, but as boulderjohn found, not impossible. What becomes harder though is pushing through the politics and other artificial impediments to actually enforce QC's findings so as to actually effect a change in the process where it is needed.

My father was a Departmental Supervisor that made hiring/firing decisions on teachers and we've talked about this on many occasions. Within many of our traditional domestic public education programs today, the QC loop is broken, because of issues regarding individual accountability are being avoided instead of confronted, and thus, it can be difficult to change (or fire) an ineffective teacher. It doesn't help that elected schoolboards tend to be filled with self-serving snakes which drives away the honest talent who's willing to make (and take the heat for) tough decisions...and thus, history repeats itself.


-hh

 

[boulderjohn]

My father was a Departmental Supervisor that made hiring/firing decisions on teachers and we've talked about this on many occasions. Within many of our traditional domestic public education programs today, the QC loop is broken, because of issues regarding individual accountability are being avoided instead of confronted, and thus, it can be difficult to change (or fire) an ineffective teacher. It doesn't help that elected schoolboards tend to be filled with self-serving snakes which drives away the honest talent who's willing to make (and take the heat for) tough decisions...and thus, history repeats itself.

You make good points, but my real concern and my true comparison is not so much with firing the really bad teachers but in creating the really good ones. I am not talking only about the separation of the really poor instructors from the pack. I am also interested in the separation of the really great instructors from those that are merely good.

There are many reasons that poor teachers are not fired, but one of them is that it is not all that easy to identify them. Everybody "knows" by word of mouth who the really good and really bad teachers are in a school, but the problem is that research studies have shown that this word of mouth knowledge is the least reliable measure of teacher quality. I could fill this forum with stories of renowned, celebrated teachers who actually have very poor results with student achievement. You can see that they get along with students well and have interesting classes, but it is not as easy to see if the students are actually learning something. To truly understand a teacher's competence, you have to use a carefully constructed review process. In my experience, if you follow such a process, it is not all that hard to fire a teacher. Unfortunately, few evaluators do that.

It is much, much harder to create a great teacher. There is far more to understand about the teaching process than people who are not experts can understand. Just to give an example, I once invited another teacher, an excellent instructor, to team with me in an instructional exercise in an Advanced Placement class. She tried to get a discussion going by asking a question, and the class full of very bright students stared at her in uncomfortable silence. She tried again without a change. I finally stepped in and asked a similar question. Hands shot up. Soon we had a very lively and exciting debate going.

After the class, I started to apologize to my colleague, but she was in a state of pure excitement because she had seen instantly why they had answered my question and not hers. It had nothing to do with who we were--it was the way I phrased the question. She had phrased hers in a way that discouraged a response, and I did the opposite. Morevoer, the phrasing of my question led to a more meaningful learning experience than hers. She immediately wrote an article on the experience and ended up presenting on it at several conferences. This is an example of one of thousands of extremely subtle but learnable skills that separates teachers in ability.

If you go to an elementary classroom, you will see a teacher working with students on reading skills. The teacher will listen to a student read and then step in with questions and comments. What questions and comments? That is where the individual skill comes in. When the student is reading, the teacher is diagnosing, like a Doctor observing a patient's symptoms. What the teacher says should help the student learn. Two different teachers can have the same training, but the brilliant teacher will pick up on the most subtle clues and make the best responses. It is incredibly hard to teach someone how to do that sort of thing, and much of it is innate ability.

As I said earlier, all recent research in education talks about the wide disparity in the quality of teachers, and the great importance the individual teacher has on student success. Yes, every scuba agency should have high standards to begin with, but I just don't see how any agency anywhere can produce equally competent instructors without a level of intense and continuous training and evaluation that would be unimaginably cost-prohibitive.

 

[RikRaeder]

You're missing the point...My criticisims are that critical pieces have been eliminated from courses whilst the agencies pretent that students are, never-the-less, preparted to dive without leadership...

What critical training has been eliminated?