Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[Hoomi]

With any sport that carries a given element of risk, the first experiences are critical.

How many young men go out and buy a crotch-rocket for their first motorcycle, and end up in the ER in short order because they're starting out with WAY more bike than their experience level is ready to handle?

Anyone have accident statistics on sky-diving for the first ten jumps of new skydivers? I'd warrant the risk factor there is also higher until the participant gains more experience.

NHTSA data indicates the greatest accident risk for drivers is during the first year or two of driving, until they gain enough experience to handle the unexpected and to avoid hazards. We see this playing out in the states where teen drivers are being subjected to greater limitations.

Not to either defend or defame PADI or any other agency, but I'd suspect that ANY new diver, regardless of what agency they trained with or how extensive their training was, faces their greatest risks during their first ten dives. More extensive training, without a doubt, helps minimize the risk factors by teaching the students the techniques necessary to either avoid danger, or to handle it without panicking; still, under duress even well-trained people can sometimes suffer critical lapses.

Looking at the statistics that were posted, even well-experienced divers sometimes suffer critical lapses, and I would guess some of those are due to complacency or over-confidence. I'd bet, though, that a lot more experienced divers suffered lapses, but because of their extensive experience, it produced nothing more than an "aw, #%*!" before the diver handled it properly. Training and experience help to keep lapses from landing you on the statistics list.

Is it a miracle if a PADI-trained diver survives their first ten dives? I guess it depends on what kind of perspective you have. Myself, when I consider all the things in this world that can go wrong, I sometimes think it's a miracle when I survive another mundane day. Life isn't safe. Every intersection on our roads is a "kill zone". Sun exposure could give me metastatic melanoma. Nasty diseases abound. Criminals prowl our cities. Momentary inattention can produce a serious industrial accident.

All we can do is reduce the risk factors; we cannot eliminate them altogether.

 

[Standingbear56]

It seems that PADI is always the unwanted stepchild of the diving industry. If Put Another Dollar In is so wrong, how come all the other agencies charge for their services? Every agency and Dive Center wants you to Put Another Dollar In their coffers, but no one bitches when they make a profit. It's only wrong when PADI does it. Seems to me that PADI is a heck of a lot more sound that Wall Street is right now. Hmmm, maybe Wall Street should have followed PADI's example.
I don't know of any beginning diver taught by any agency that is totally competent to be on their own when their only experience is 4 - 6 dives under the direct supervision of an instructor. This is why PADI wants them to get into an AOW course ASAP - to give them more dive time while under direct/indirect supervision - because they are NOT competent yet. No Newbe is at this point, and I dare say everyone knows this. Can you tell me an agency who DOESN'T want their new OW divers to get into their AOW course ASAP? (and I suspect they will want payment for the course also, as well as to sell more equipment - That's so PADI of them isn't it) This isn't some deep dark "If I tell you, I have to Kill you" PADI secret, it's plain old common sense. Sheesh!

 

[String]

Heard about it myself at the local 5 star PADI facility.

The C/D was emphasizing to the local OWSIs and DMs "we NEED to get the students to sign up for AOW because ... ."

So in summary then you have no documentation or proof whatsoever for your claims and are completely unable to back them up. You're stating an entire case based on something you allegedly heard off 1 guy in 1 shop and passing it off as deluded. The fact the rest of the planet including people who really should know about these things are completely unaware appears to have bypassed you as well.

 

[String]

As someone who worked for the National Underwater Accident Data Center I'd have to say that to the best of my recollection the "first 10 dive" thing is a pretty good approximation if you throw the cave and technical accidents out of the data set.

Certainly isnt the case here and hasn't been for well over 10 years if not longer. The "danger" group here are sports diver level (roughly aow + rescue level) diving in the 25-40m range. The stats show a far larger % of incidents for this group and level than anywhere else.

 

[boulderjohn]

One of the most disturbing books I ever read was Howard Gardner’s Leading Minds: An Anatomy of Leadership. Gardner says that successful leaders communicate effectively by tailoring their messages to their audiences. The challenge comes when they must communicate with a diverse audience. According to Gardner, different segments of a diverse audience have mindsets that are frozen at the various levels of child development identified by Piaget. It is impossible to deliver a message that appeals to all those levels of development, so a communicator has almost no choice but to deliver a targeted message that will not work with some developmental levels.

Gardner says that the big mistake most potential leaders make is ignoring the lowest level of development, Piaget’s five year old mind. To put it simplistically, the adult who is still thinking at the five year old developmental level lacks the capacity for dealing with complexities. Everything is black and white. The world is filled with good guys and bad guys, and things are right or wrong. Good guys are always good. Bad guys are always bad. Explanations of complexity or shades of gray sound to them like lies and evasions, and they shout out things like “Just give me a yes or no answer!” and respond reflexively to mindless slogans.

According to Gardner, most leaders ignore that audience in their messages, but ignoring this audience is a mistake. In the long run, they nearly always carry the day. The effective leader tailors a message to this group, even though it really amounts to lying. That is why you hear politicians tell us that we are the good guys out to save the world from the “evildoers” who “hate freedom.” That is why the pigs in Animal Farm teach the sheep to bleat “Two legs good! Four legs bad!” whenever someone tries to have an intelligent conversation. Gardner cites chilling examples of how people like Hitler used this kind of communication technique to ensnare the mind of a nation. Sadly, he does not offer a really good solution, suggesting that someone who wants to make some kind of positive statement about a complex issue really has no choice but to dumb it down to that level in public discourse, but then try for a more reasoned approach in private.

In a public forum like this, we will see the repetition of mindless slogans, with shades of gray and other complexities ridiculed. When the sheep are bleating, it is hard to have rational discourse. While there is no possibility of making headway with those offering the slogans themselves, the sad thing is that they do indeed drown out the words of others, and they will indeed sway the opinions of many.

 

[Thalassamania]

Certainly isnt the case here and hasn't been for well over 10 years if not longer. The "danger" group here are sports diver level (roughly aow + rescue level) diving in the 25-40m range. The stats show a far larger % of incidents for this group and level than anywhere else.

Are you talking decompression incidents or fatalities? Our charter at the NUADC covered fatalities.

 

[Teamcasa]

One of the most disturbing books I ever read was Howard Gardner’s Leading Minds: An Anatomy of Leadership.
<snip>
In a public forum like this, we will see the repetition of mindless slogans, with shades of gray and other complexities ridiculed. When the sheep are bleating, it is hard to have rational discourse. While there is no possibility of making headway with those offering the slogans themselves, the sad thing is that they do indeed drown out the words of others, and they will indeed sway the opinions of many.

Great book. When I was an Instructor at a local Community College, I had a class where my students were all adults, all about the same level of intellect. I felt like a terrific instructor. When teaching a deferent subject, there was a wide gap in age and subject understanding (physics) and I struggled to get my points across. After I read that book and my realization came crashing in!

Divers, certifications agencies and instructors come in all levels of quality. I don&#8217;t judge one by a single point of data or by one anecdotal story.

 

[boulderjohn]

I just checked DAN's 2007 report on dive injuries and fatalities. Here are the statistics on fatalities.

Certification Levels (p. 51): They had information on 55 people, about half the total fatalities. Here is the breakdown:

Student: 1
OW only: 9
Advanced or specialty: 13
Higher certification: 22

Years since certification (p. 51):This one is in percents. They report this one in a bar graph, and I have to make a slight estimate on a couple.

<1: 10%
1 : 15%
2: 10%
3-5: 10%
6-10: 20%
>10: 35%

The full report suggests that the primary cause of fatalities is more likely to be linked to physical fitness than to other factors.

 

[Thalassamania]

It makes sense that decompression problems (which are what DAN focuses on) would not be prevalent amongst new divers. I'd like to see a bread down of drownings and AGE cases, my recollection is that they concentrated amongst new divers. I'll check the old NUADC reports and get back.

 

[boulderjohn]

It makes sense that decompression problems (which are what DAN focuses on) would not be prevalent amongst new divers. I'd like to see a bread down of drownings and AGE cases, my recollection is that they concentrated amongst new divers. I'll check the old NUADC reports and get back.

No, that is not the case. They list everything. You can see a case history for every individual death, including the ones they don't know much about.

I skimmed through the entire list. I did not keep track, but the things I kept seeing were heart attacks and embolisms. Decompression sickness is extremely rare in these deaths. Many references to people being out of shape. The one student in the list died of a heart attack. A number of rebreather accidents, including 2 people who died while checking out their rebreathers in a pool. One of the first year divers went solo after lobster in heavy current without a BCD. Another of the first year divers decided to abort the dive and somehow died on the way back to shore.

They note that a key factor was poor use of the buddy system in many cases.