Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

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Hey just noticed that there's an entry for logged dives that's empty near my picture. Let's see. Since 1973 when we started logging I'm up to 4300 or so. I'll go get the book out of the boat. I am impressed by peopkle who list 10,000 dives or 15,000 dives. If you dived every day for ten years (no days off) you'd log 3650+. Most people don't dive every day - certain;y not for years and years. So logged numbers over 5000 are suspect - especially from the many people who claim them. No one shoyuld be upset about this - just do the math. Every day for 30 years would get you 10,950. 365 per year for 40 years would get you 14600. I've been diving for 55 years. I probably have 7000 dives. The measure of a diver isn't how deep he or she goes, but how often he or she goes. I would guess the average person gets to log 25 dives a year.
Swizzle stick scubas can imagine many dives. Good for them.

Calhoun
For those of you who are too young to know him, Fred is one of the grand old men of diving. He was the NAUI Branch Manager of the Northeast for several decades and put on a great dive show in Boston. He also wrote the best diving physics text that has ever seen ink, I still crib from my well worn copy when putting together lectures.
 
The problem is that until you've done the five or six classes, and spent the $1,500 to $2,000 dollars, you are a clear and present danger to yourself and others. But nobody tells you that, they make believe that you are fully trained and ready and able to dive, with minimal risk, under conditions that are the same as those you were trained in. That is until something that you were not trained to handle (e.g., regulator coming out of the mouthpiece) or never really got (e.g., air sharing) comes your way. Then your survival is just a matter of chance.


Thalassaminia,

Would you share more about other significant but rare underwater surprises that recreational divers certified in recent years are not trained for and probably have never heard of?



Kathy
 
Quote:

"Originally Posted by Fred Calhoun
Hey just noticed that there's an entry for logged dives that's empty near my picture. Let's see. Since 1973 when we started logging I'm up to 4300 or so. I'll go get the book out of the boat. I am impressed by peopkle who list 10,000 dives or 15,000 dives. If you dived every day for ten years (no days off) you'd log 3650+. Most people don't dive every day - certain;y not for years and years. So logged numbers over 5000 are suspect - especially from the many people who claim them. No one shoyuld be upset about this - just do the math. Every day for 30 years would get you 10,950. 365 per year for 40 years would get you 14600. I've been diving for 55 years. I probably have 7000 dives. The measure of a diver isn't how deep he or she goes, but how often he or she goes. I would guess the average person gets to log 25 dives a year.
Swizzle stick scubas can imagine many dives. Good for them.

Calhoun"

___________________________________________________________________________

I got smart a long time ago. I try to bath at least three times a day and I figured out that if I did a bath instead of a shower I could count it as a dive, I wear my mask and snorkel, surely that counts! That is three dives per day. Then in Phoenix I would get home in the afternoon and jump in the pool and take my afternoon nap on the bottom. Sometimes when I was asleep the mouth piece would fall out and I would inhale a quart or two so I started pulling the second stage strap tight, I hated it when that happened and woke me up, took forever to get back to sleep.

N
 
It has more to do with situational awareness and dive team resource management. You need to be able to "visualize" the "risk cone." If you stay in the center of that cone (which gets smaller as you go deeper) and the cone is large enough for you to fit in, then you are fine. If you lose control and drift out of the cone, then you're in trouble. The exact radius of the cone at a given depth is defined by everything that's going on and your selection of equipment and breathing media. If you are highly skilled, are using the right gear and the right gas, and are diving as part of a highly skilled team then it is relatively easy to fit yourself inside the cone if not ... well you will have trouble if something causes you to drift outside of the cone. "Safe" divers learn early that often they can get back into the cone just by ascending a little.

Is that too spacey?
 
For those of you who are too young to know him, Fred is one of the grand old men of diving. He was the NAUI Branch Manager of the Northeast for several decades and put on a great dive show in Boston. He also wrote the best diving physics text that has ever seen ink, I still crib from my well worn copy when putting together lectures.

I'm not too young to know Fred and I know that his best years are far, far behind him.

Grand old man? How about cranky old fart who doesn't know when it's time to shut up.
 
Thanks for the reply. No not too spacey. I entirely understand and feel confident in locating my "cone."

I am more concerned with awareness about the wild card which occurs "within ones cone." Such as "regulators coming out of the mouthpieces" and strong down currents. Things that newer divers like myself may not be aware of, or have the skills to deal with.

Will keep reading the "near miss & accident" SB forums as I am sure most of these issues will eventually surface.

Kathy
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by nereas
The risk is mostly during the first 10 dives with a PADI cert.

And your proof for that particular statement is where exactly?

Perhaps not necessarily the literal "First 10", but I'd believe the claim because it corresponds well enough to DAN's Annual Accident reports (IIRC, now available on the web), which for years and years has had a big old lump of fatalities for novices.

Hitting ye olde bookshelf ... 1988 DAN Dive Accidents Report:

Page 8 (2.4 Experience)...general discussion appears to be that DAN considered a 'new diver' to be one with <1 year experience (Note: in 1987, this "<1 year" was listed as a risk factor and was present in 25%-30% of DCS and AGE cases in that year). In 1988, what is specifically listed is a "<20 dives" risk factor and it was reportedly present in 75% of all new diver injuries (Note: it was the most significant 'New Diver Trait' risk factor listed; table is on page 10).

And this statement is particularly damning (paragraph 2.4 Experience; page 8):

"There were 25 cases of gas embolism in the 78 dives who had been diving one year or less. These 25 cases were 32% of new divers bt 69% of all embolism cases (46) in this report, suggesting that lack of experience may contribute to the risk of AGE. Rapid ascent occurred in 16 of the 25 new diver embolisms.

1989 DAN Dive Accidents Report, page 15:

Table 3.4 Dive Experience

14.9% Noncertified
14.0% Novice (<5 dives)
29.8% Inexperienced (6-20)
14.9% Intermediate (21-40)
4.4% Advanced (41-60)
14.9% Experienced (60+)

(Note: numbers do not equal 100% due to missing information)

From the above, if we drop out the 'Noncertified' and recalculate (original total=106), we get (n=92) and:

formula form is now: 16/(106-14) = 17.4%


17.4% Novice (<5 dives)
37.0% Inexperienced (6-20)
18.5% Intermediate (21-40)
5.4% Advanced (41-60)
18.5% Experienced (60+)

Combining the above 0-5 and 6-20 experience ranges:

54.4% Novice + Inexperienced (0-20)
18.5% Intermediate (21-40)
5.4% Advanced (41-60)
18.5% Experienced (60+)

YMMV if a value exceeding 50% is significant enough to conclude that there's a correlation of experience to safety. Similarly, YMMV on if you think that a measure of "<20 dives" is close enough to the claim here of "<10 dives".

And unfortunately, the real sin is that I'm pulling from 20 year old reports and this problem still hasn't gone away, nor has DAN publicly taken the Industry Tiger by the Tail and taken them to task, to effect change through "Bad Publicity"

As such, my answer to Hoomi's question is: get DAN to grow a set and finally ... after easily 20 years of dancing around a known risk factor ... publish the accident report data in a Public Forum, and in a form that clearly outlines this 'inexperience factor' as it contributes to Diver injuries & deaths.


-hh
 
I would not put SSI in the same sentence with PADI.

SSI quality is miles ahead of PADI, generally speaking.

I had read other posts suggesting the two were comparable. The training program here in town that I skipped because it seemed much too short (even shorter than the PADI course) was an SSI affiliated shop. Perhaps the SSI course makes up for shorter "group" time by requiring more individual reading and study ahead of time, but when I was looking for programs here in Tucson, I found the SSI shop advertised a two day course, while the PADI shop advertised a four day course.

Even before researching here, I thought two days seemed much, MUCH, too short to cover anything near an adequate amount of information on diving.

HH, I think you make a valid point. Perhaps what would be ideal is if DAN became the certifying authority, rather than each individual training organization. I agree with a previous poster that government certification would not likely solve the problems, particularly since this isn't just a United States issue. However, if this was something similar to, say, pilot training, where the instruction can be handled by different organizations and different schools, but licensing is under the authority of the FAA (here in the States, at least), we might see some change. PADI, SSI, NAUI, et al, could continue to organize and promote classes, but the certification would have to be under the standards of an independent organization such as DAN that has no financial stake in promoting a quicker, easier, or cheaper program to learn scuba.

If such an organization was managed by dive instructors with ample experience to know what standards to enforce, in order to help reduce the risks of safety incidents among new and intermediate divers, it might make a big difference.

NAUI, PADI, SSI, and so on, could teach the courses however they saw fit, but the results would have to speak for themselves. If word got around that Skipper's Scuba Shack in Dustpit, Oklahoma had an abysmally high rate of divers failing to qualify on the certification exam, it'd likely affect Skipper's business. He'd have to either correct his teaching methods, or go out of business.

What do you think, Walter and Thalassamania? Based on how you describe your training methods, I doubt that either of you would worry too much about any of the students that finished your program failing to qualify certification from an independent examining body. I would think written cert exams first to check theoretical knowledge, followed by confined water dives to check basic practical skills (I know if I were a certifying examiner, I'd want to make sure the divers knew the necessary skills under controlled circumstances before I jumped into the ocean or a quarry with them), and then the open water exams.

Is that reasonable, and - more importantly - is that something that could realistically be brought about?
 
Even before researching here, I thought two days seemed much, MUCH, too short to cover anything near an adequate amount of information on diving.

There's a lot of inadequacies within the system.

For example, a lot of Dive Instructors do the job because they want to, not because they earn their living doing it...this is especially true of the local, regional scene. It is because they have a paying day job outside of diving that these Instructors have any education ... if you look at the Agency standards (here's PADI), not even a High School Diploma is required. As such, that's an Instructor attribute that has been provided by "luck", not by process.

YMMV, but simply being able to parrot back Boyle's Law isn't good enough for the Instructor.

In my local State, the Dive Industry's Standards to be an Instructor Trainer or PADI Course Director aren't even adequate to qualify them to be an Elementary School Substitute Teacher for a bunch of 4th Graders (NJ requires completion of 60 college credits for Substitutes). So again, the professional educational qualification requirements of even the top leadership positions in the Education-providing Dive Industry is zero. Thus, qualified professionals are a matter of luck, not process (process = published standards).

Fundamentally, this is why the perennial advice given by veteran divers to new potential customers to the sport is: "its not the Agency, but the Instructor".


HH, I think you make a valid point. Perhaps what would be ideal is if DAN became the certifying authority, rather than each individual training organization.

It depends on what you mean by 'Certifying'. Certifying of students, or certifying of Training Agencies. I hope you don't mean the former!

However, we already have 'watchdogs' in the form of the toothless RSTC and all the Agencies (with DEMA) played a game back in the 1980s by getting ANSI Z86-3 created as an International 'Standard' that they claim to then follow. This was really just a very well orchestrated event that provided them some degree of legal liability topcover for their training, as it merely says that everyone follows the "Industry Standards" that they defined.

Unfortunately, the ANSI-ISO process isn't perfect. Simply documenting what the Industry Practices are does not actually provide for any proof that the Industry Practices actually perform well, or even adequately. But it does give your lawyers something to rely on if your Agency gets sued for killing a student: "we weren't different than anyone else".

As such, and also because DAN is a medical assistance and medical research organization, DAN should be the totally independent & ethical Industry Watchdog.

The way that DAN can effect change is to publish in their Annual report with a large section prominently highlighting how frequently we kill new divers ... and if one Agency is statistically worse than another, NAME them in print.

After the denial & CYA phase, lawsuits and fear of lawsuits will then kick in to actually start to improve things. And DAN's next annual report will show if any progress has been made, which will hold their feet to the fire.

Predictably, DEMA and the Agencies will scream that DAN's actions is hurting business, but that's a sham: the real truth is that anyone who dares to complain is merely announcing to the world that they have put their greed for the Almighty Buck ahead of the safety of their customers.

And when the guilty act surprised and say "we'll look right into it", the BS! flag should immediately be shoved in their spokesman's mouth, pointing out that there is proof in the DAN reports that they've known about this problem for 20+ years, so show us what attempts that they've already made, instead of empty promises.


NAUI, PADI, SSI, and so on, could teach the courses however they saw fit, but the results would have to speak for themselves. If word got around that Skipper's Scuba Shack in Dustpit, Oklahoma had an abysmally high rate of divers failing to qualify on the certification exam, it'd likely affect Skipper's business. He'd have to either correct his teaching methods, or go out of business.

Got to be careful there: local shops that develop a reputation for failing students go out of business because they're failing students, not because they're teaching to higher standards. By definition, the new customer is uneducated and commonly is merely looking for the lowest bar possible.

You really can't blame the new customer because he simply doesn't know better, and because the Industry (and I'm including DAN here) has done a good job of not providing the relevant information by which they could be meaningfully differentiated.

As such, what you need to do instead is to start the smackdown top-down from the Agency level, by providing the objective empirical data on how well their Students perform in real life (accidents & deaths).

From there, what you want to have happen is for Skipper's Scuba Shack put up a big sign in their window that says that they're proud to be teaching to the NAPI Agency standards, because DAN reporting shows that that Agency make the safest divers.

This now differentiates Skipper's diveshop from Gilligan's diveshop, who is still teaching the other Agency's stuff. A credible source who is providing real information that differentiates training products will result in an improved ability for the customer to make an informed purchase decision, and will also permit the Skipper to actually charge more for his higher quality product...but only if he has proof instead of rhetoric.

Is that reasonable, and - more importantly - is that something that could realistically be brought about?

DAN could publish the Statistics tomorrow ... if they wanted to.


-hh
 
It has more to do with situational awareness and dive team resource management. You need to be able to "visualize" the "risk cone." If you stay in the center of that cone (which gets smaller as you go deeper) and the cone is large enough for you to fit in, then you are fine. If you lose control and drift out of the cone, then you're in trouble. The exact radius of the cone at a given depth is defined by everything that's going on and your selection of equipment and breathing media. If you are highly skilled, are using the right gear and the right gas, and are diving as part of a highly skilled team then it is relatively easy to fit yourself inside the cone if not ... well you will have trouble if something causes you to drift outside of the cone. "Safe" divers learn early that often they can get back into the cone just by ascending a little.

Is that too spacey?

Thal, Not too spacey.....

You will be happy to know that teaching the "incident pit" is alive and well and is currently part of the GUE Fundamentals curriculum. Very useful tool and one I introduce in the end of OW classes.
 

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