double tank equipment

[cool_hardware52]

I can understand your perspective partly because I know you spend a great deal of time talking to people in a business sense about things they do not know. You see this day in and day out.

But if scuba is full of people that need help replacing an LP hose perhaps the formal model of education, which has been in effect for nearly 50 years, isn't working so well.

I agree completely.

I'm not anti professional either, but I am somewhat jaded as to what passes as such in diving. I have had "professionals" tell me my steel tanks are no good because they are more than 20years old and prone to cracking. When I try to explain the difference between 6351 Al and Steel I can tell they have no idea what I'm talking about. They have adopted the power of veto without understanding the rationale because they are now unquestioned as professionals. I think the professional class in diving could use a good shaking up that way to separate the wheat from the chaff and I will admit arguing sometimes to try to achieve that effect.

No argument here either

Another example is when I say I dive sometimes without SPG or BCD. I am told either it can't be done, or is patently unsafe. I don't always blame them really because they don't know what they don't know (to coin that phrase). They were educated and certified to teach diving without being exposed to those basic diving techniques. Of little consequence when just one more opinion but a little sad when it carries the weight of professionalism with it.

I was getting on a dive boat once and the DM wanted to see cert cards. I seldom even carry them. I dug out a TDI advance Nitrox and Deco procedures Card. The DM had no idea that there are training agencies other than PADI….

I hear ya. The sad state of scuba training however does nothing to change the fact that a guy uncertain of how many SPGs are required is likely in desperate need of qualified training.

Tobin

 

[Storker]

Didn't they cover all this in your BOW class like Stoker claims?

Cite, please?

You are again misrepresenting my arguments in order to make a point.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Cite, please?

You are again misrepresenting my arguments in order to make a point.

Previously you said in post #4 in this very thread:

That really depends on the reason for using doubles, doesn't it?

If not, what training have they missed, those of my clubmates why do rec dives in small(ish) double sets, with just a standard rec cert?

I'd suggest you were referring to Basic Open Water from any of a number of agencies.

It then follows that you seem to think that everything one needs to know to operate and dive doubles is part of BOW.

As I have already pointed out in this very thread that has never been included in any BOW class I've been associated with, not one.

Do I need to repeat this point, and quote your posts every day for you to grasp the concept that important details for the safe operation of doubles is *NOT* part of BOW?

Please let me know. Maybe I can write script that will post this hourly.

Tobin

 

[Stoo]

After I got my snorkel training, I moved onto a full mask certification, and soon followed it with single, then double fin certifications. I took a break from training for a while (It was pretty over-whelming...) before eventually earning my wetsuit cert, then my bcd card...

I have never heard of any sort of training specific to diving double, other than Intro to Tec kinda stuff... which is obviously a lot more than just diving doubles. With all due respect to some fellow posters, sometimes it's ok to get a new piece of gear, get a few tips from the dive shop dude or watch some friends, and then just jump in and figure it out. I guess I'm getting old, but I took one course... NAUI Basic. Pretty much figured the rest out on my own and can't honestly say I had even a bump along the way. (As far as anything that would be considered "sport diving" anyway...)

Really, it isn't necessary to take a course every time you visit a dive shop...

 

[cool_hardware52]

After I got my snorkel training, I moved onto a full mask certification, and soon followed it with single, then double fin certifications. I took a break from training for a while (It was pretty over-whelming...) before eventually earning my wetsuit cert, then my bcd card...

I have never heard of any sort of training specific to diving double, other than Intro to Tec kinda stuff... which is obviously a lot more than just diving doubles. With all due respect to some fellow posters, sometimes it's ok to get a new piece of gear, get a few tips from the dive shop dude or watch some friends, and then just jump in and figure it out. I guess I'm getting old, but I took one course... NAUI Basic. Pretty much figured the rest out on my own and can't honestly say I had even a bump along the way. (As far as anything that would be considered "sport diving" anyway...)

Really, it isn't necessary to take a course every time you visit a dive shop...

Who here is advocating paid training for every step?

I've advocated qualified training. Huge difference.

I'll also point out that in this very thread we've been treated to the specter of a diver who claims long experience, is a self professed amateur plumber, (whatever that is) has the benefit of valve / manifold schematics, a towering command of logic and endless confidence in his own opinion. Yet none of that resulted in him having a correct understanding of how a Iso manifold actually works…...


Tobin

 

[Adobo]

Who here is advocating paid training for every step?

I've advocated qualified training. Huge difference.

I'll also point out that in this very thread we've been treated to the specter of a diver who claims long experience, is a self professed amateur plumber, (whatever that is) has the benefit of valve / manifold schematics, a towering command of logic and endless confidence in his own opinion. Yet none of that resulted in him having a correct understanding of how a Iso manifold actually works…...


Tobin

This is like a game of whack a mole. Try as you might, you can never truly knock down all the ridiculousness that keeps popping up. And this is just on operating the manifold. Haven't really delved in any other areas - reg configuration (which post do you put the primary reg on, which post do put back up on), proper tank choices, proper exposure suit choices, hose routing, wing size choices, so on and so on.

It could be that a five minute converstion with a dive shop guy will be enough to cover all of it and give you all you need to know (after all, just about all of it is self evident). Or maybe you won't even need that since all of this should be covered in your open water training.

Somehow, my open water training was insufficient and my dive shop guy just ain't that good.

 

[cool_hardware52]

At least I understand how to apply Dunning-Kruger. Stick to your metal shop. You are undoubtedly good with your hands. Stick to that sort of thing. Intellectual pursuits will just frustrate you further, causing you to write increasingly contrived and deceptive foolishness.

I do have long experience. I am a good amateur plumber, and my ability to employ logic is reasonably good: after this list you unfathomably wrote: "yet none of that resulted in him having a correct understanding of how a(n) Iso manifold actually works..."

Why should any those things you listed as my attributes have any connection with an understanding of isolation valve operation? Can't you see that there is absolutely no connection, nothing that justifies your "yet"? Are you so bereft of rational logic, fundamental causal connection, basic operational analysis? You are writing non sequitur irrational nonsense.

Stick to your machine shop.

You are the guy that listed your many "qualifications" and repeatedly claimed that the operation of a manifold was "obvious" Apparently not so much.

Perhaps now you can share your numerous "qualifications" for the "obvious" career advice you now offer?

Tobin

 

[agilis]

You are the guy that listed your many "qualifications" and repeatedly claimed that the operation of a manifold was "obvious" Apparently not so much.

Perhaps now you can share your numerous "qualifications" for the "obvious" career advice you now offer?

Tobin

I listed 'qualifications'? I think not. Another baseless comment. Perhaps you have your own definitions.

The operation of a scuba manifold is obvious. it permits the linking of multiple tanks. The precise plumbing connection arrangements may vary, but that is what a scuba manifold does.

I offered career advice? Is that how you interpreted my suggestion that you focus on what you know, at what you do well? Common sense. No qualifications needed.

I do have a lot of experience in higher education, but I never mentioned it. My qualifications in connection with scuba are limited to an NASDS certification in 1972, and a Nitrox certification much more recently. Other than that, I have no qualifications. I do have long and diverse experience which I described in a couple of sentences, but that is not a qualification. More a personal history, an outline really, most of it unremarkable, shared by almost everyone doing any serious diving during the last half of the 20th Century.

I do know how to repair and rebuild regulators and valves, a skill not possessed by most divers, and once helped a good friend, a dive shop owner/instructor now long gone, teach his AOW students UW navigation for a couple of years. That does not reflect a qualification, only a deep interest and lots of practice, much of it land based while in the military, and done gratis for a friend who was not that good at the fine points of navigation. Students can always tell if you really know your stuff.

Again, I have no idea what the hell you are fulminating about. You tend to write apparently moved by something deeply felt but ill expressed.

 

[Storker]

this is just on operating the manifold. Haven't really delved in any other areas - reg configuration (which post do you put the primary reg on, which post do put back up on), proper tank choices, proper exposure suit choices, hose routing, wing size choices, so on and so on.

OK, I'll play. And I'm not, mind you, shooting for a "gotcha". I'm honestly interested in seeing what we moles (in your opinion) have missed. And maybe we also ought to stop screaming and frothing at the mouth...

Let's assume that I, a fairly middle-of-the road rec diver in our part of the world, for some reason wanted a twinset instead of the single tank setup I'm using these days. Maybe I want to carry more gas to get more bottom time from my nitrox fills, which leave me gas limited and not NDL limited these days. Maybe I want a compact rig that sits closer to my back and exerts less momentum that tries to turn me belly up. Maybe I think doubles look really cool and want a set just for the pure self-satisfaction. And just for the argument, let's assume I know what I was taught in my open water classes about safe diving practice, monitoring my gas and NDLs and so on, and that I'm already able to use my current setup. Not a big stretch, is it?

I have three options:

1. I can go to a decent LDS and buy a kit.
2. I can buy a used kit.
3. I can go the IKEA route and shop around on the 'net, "some assembly required".

Now let's examine option 1. Since I generally know which LDSs in the neighborhood that have competent personnel, and which of them that have what knowledge, I choose one where I trust the guy(s) to sell me a decent kit. Since I don't do deco, I probably won't need anything bigger than a D7 or a D8.5. I've seen those D12 sets, and I know that they're a b!tch to haul, so I don't want that. Besides, there's no way that I'll need all that gas before I'm well into deco (I remember my OW curriculum, right?). We discuss tank options within the range I've indicated and they tell me which size wing I need, based on my choice of tanks, using my current choice of wing, weighting and exposure protection as their basis. They also help me set up my hoses and regs, which is one of the services I pay for by shopping at the LDS instead of shopping online. I'm actually able to remember which 1st stage that goes on which post once I've been told. It's also pretty bleedin' obvious to me that if I have two tanks, I'd prefer that both tank valves are open during diving and when I fill them, and if the manifold has an isolation valve (yes, I've seen manifolded twins without an isolation valve. AFAIK, the iso valve isn't a necessary item unless you need redundant gas, which you don't if you're diving no-stop in open water) it should also be open. My exposure protection is the same, since the water is just as frikkin' cold and I use just as much undergarments irrespective of whether I strap one or two tanks on my back. What have I missed?

So what about option 2? I have a decent idea about the size I'm looking for, because I can do simple gas calculations, so I won't be buying a D15 or some other outlandishly sized set. But the final choice of tanks will depend on what's on the market. I'll bet you a beer that the guy I buy the stuff from has his kit already set up, with the right hoses on the right 1st stages. And the wing will probably be about the right size, since we're both diving the in the same conditions, with similar exposure protection. I ask him which 1st stage goes on which post, and as far as I can see, I'm good to go. I still understand about the two or three valves instead of one, and my exposure protection still hasn't changed. What have I missed?

Now, then, option 3. Well, that's where I'll need some tutoring, and I'll concede that if the case were like that, I should probably seek some mentoring. But as I've pointed out a dozen or so times before, I totally fail to see that pointing out that there are people who dive doubles in the rec domain without formal training can be "encouraging irresponsible behavior" in any way.

 

[FinnMom]

Special training for doubles? Like Storker, I live in a place where almost all local divers were certified with single tanks and soon switched to doubles (because we have mildly deep wrecks all along the coast and because we dive under the ice, among other reasons). Special training for doubles does sound as overblown as special training instead of just letting dad show you how to use a bicycle.
Our diving federations do keeps stats of injuries and deaths. You can say it is dangerous but the numbers aren't with you.

Your justification is the training needed to dive deep, plan gas, plan failures etc. Those are deep and extended diving issues, not doubles diving issues. You can link the two, but only as well and by the same logic as you could link the use of cable lights to those matters. I use a racing quality helmet and don't need training on how to drive a motorbike 300 km/hr, I also use a diving reel without needing cave training. If I were to engage in these demanding activities without proper training and get hurt, I would be a victim of stupidity, not a lack of training.