double tank equipment

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I think the main difference between the US and Europe/UK is through the club system on this side of the pond, mentoring from more experienced divers is constantly taking place (whether you realise it or not). I don't know a single person who has strapped on a twinset for the first time and gone off and done a deep dive. They've gone off with someone more experienced, done some shallow stuff, worked on getting their weighting sorted, and got comfortable in the kit before heading off to a deep wreck.
I knew quite a bit about twinsets by the time I made the jump because most of the people I dived with were in twins. I did the GUE doubles primer, which was basically a day of mentoring, getting everything sorted. Then I did a whole bunch of shallow diving before i went deep.
 
I don't know a single person who has strapped on a twinset for the first time and gone off and done a deep dive. They've gone off with someone more experienced, done some shallow stuff, worked on getting their weighting sorted, and got comfortable in the kit before heading off to a deep wreck.
And that, too, is not a doubles specific issue.

I don't know a single person who should strap on new gear for the first time and go off and do a demanding dive. They should go off with someone more experienced, do some easy stuff, work on getting their weighting sorted, and get comfortable in the kit before heading off to more demanding dives. Irrespective of how many tanks they've strapped on their back (or at their hips).
 
OK, I'll play. And I'm not, mind you, shooting for a "gotcha". I'm honestly interested in seeing what we moles (in your opinion) have missed. And maybe we also ought to stop screaming and frothing at the mouth...

Let's assume that I, a fairly middle-of-the road rec diver in our part of the world, for some reason wanted a twinset instead of the single tank setup I'm using these days. Maybe I want to carry more gas to get more bottom time from my nitrox fills, which leave me gas limited and not NDL limited these days. Maybe I want a compact rig that sits closer to my back and exerts less momentum that tries to turn me belly up. Maybe I think doubles look really cool and want a set just for the pure self-satisfaction. And just for the argument, let's assume I know what I was taught in my open water classes about safe diving practice, monitoring my gas and NDLs and so on, and that I'm already able to use my current setup. Not a big stretch, is it?

I have three options:
  1. I can go to a decent LDS and buy a kit.
  2. I can buy a used kit.
  3. I can go the IKEA route and shop around on the 'net, "some assembly required".

Now let's examine option 1. Since I generally know which LDSs in the neighborhood that have competent personnel, and which of them that have what knowledge, I choose one where I trust the guy(s) to sell me a decent kit. Since I don't do deco, I probably won't need anything bigger than a D7 or a D8.5. I've seen those D12 sets, and I know that they're a b!tch to haul, so I don't want that. Besides, there's no way that I'll need all that gas before I'm well into deco (I remember my OW curriculum, right?). We discuss tank options within the range I've indicated and they tell me which size wing I need, based on my choice of tanks, using my current choice of wing, weighting and exposure protection as their basis. They also help me set up my hoses and regs, which is one of the services I pay for by shopping at the LDS instead of shopping online. I'm actually able to remember which 1st stage that goes on which post once I've been told. It's also pretty bleedin' obvious to me that if I have two tanks, I'd prefer that both tank valves are open during diving and when I fill them, and if the manifold has an isolation valve (yes, I've seen manifolded twins without an isolation valve. AFAIK, the iso valve isn't a necessary item unless you need redundant gas, which you don't if you're diving no-stop in open water) it should also be open. My exposure protection is the same, since the water is just as frikkin' cold and I use just as much undergarments irrespective of whether I strap one or two tanks on my back. What have I missed?

Its late and I want to go to bed so I'll only touch on option 1.

You've superimposed some things that may or may not be true for the original poster or any other person who reads this thread with the same question. For example, you might have this dive shop where you feel confident in their advice as to what tanks to buy, what manifold to buy, what bands to buy, how to configure regulators, etc. That's far from what I have experienced to be the norm. You certainly won't find that to be the case in just about every dive shop in Hawaii.

In Monterey, CA, one of the hotspots for diving in California, there are at least 4 dive shops in the immediate area. Only one of them has a chance of being able to speak to these topics with any authority whatsoever. And honestly, I never see any of their employees at the dive sites diving doubles nor do I hear about them doing dives that would imply the usage of doubles.

In any case, I will only touch on one facet that, on the surface, seems incredibly trivial. What length hoses will you need for your doubles kit? Your average open water diver has a primary regulator with what, a 40" hose? Is that hose still sufficient in length? To answer that question, we should look at which post the primary regulator goes on. Should it go into the left post or the right post? What are the considerations for deciding which post to put that primary regulator on?

What about your backup regulator (octopus)? Does that go on the right post or the left post? Is the length of hose that was on the octopus still sufficient? What about your low pressure inflator for your wing? Does that go on the right post or the left post? What about your drysuit inflator? What about your SPG? Which post do you put that on? And what length hose do you need for it? (And in the case of the original poster, why is one spg sufficient?). Do I even need a second first stage or can I have just one first stage and run everything off that? What are the consequences if I use just one first stage for my doubles?

You ask these question to the guys at any local dive shop, unless they are tech/cave divers, likely the answer will not be based on personal experience but rather, knowledge of what their customers do. Or, the dive shop guy might say, "Buy this halcyon hose kit for doubles. It has everything you need. It costs $200. It must have all the right hose lengths as the package has a blue H on it. And after all, Halcyon 'does it right'. " And now, you have just gone from a 40" primary reg hose to a 7' long hose that has to be stowed somehow. You've also gone from an octopus to a 22" backup reg hose. And the reg now needs to be bungeed around your neck. And then donating to an out of gas diver is no longer with an octopus but is now done with a long hose primary.

So you can have this conversation with the dive shop guy who has only second hand knowledge or you can ask a competent resource (which could be the dive shop guy if he has the training/experience) what they do and why they do it that way.

This is just the conversation on the incredibly trivial topic of hose lengths.
 
The problem may be that dive shops in other locations are not the same as your local Monterey shops. Here in the Great Lakes, cold water land, I can find shops that are rec/technically oriented, and shops that are rec oriented only. Within an hour's drive from here I can find three rec/tech shops and two rec only shops.

Another reason for diving doubles in rec diving is redundancy, which is a bonus when the water is 35F/2C.

Casual reading of UK dive chat boards reveals many people diving doubles without tech certs. It's just normal over there, like Rebreathers seem to be.
 
Another reason for diving doubles in rec diving is redundancy, which is a bonus when the water is 35F/2C.
I couldn't agree more. I giggled when the recommendation for free flowing regulator in doubles was "CESA."

(quote]Casual reading of UK dive chat boards reveals many people diving doubles without tech certs. It's just normal over there, like Rebreathers seem to be.[/QUOTE]

The suggestion was never made that doubles are a tech configuration, simply that someone asking how many SPGs to use should consider getting more information from a doubles diver face-to-face as there's a lot more to it than that. Even divers claiming that doubles were easy and required no additional knowledge screwed up basic concepts of doubles.
 
Agilis made the comment, quite some time ago (I copied the post and lost it, and don't want to go back and find it again) that all the issues involved in diving a doubles setup ought to have been covered in OW class. This irked me.
We teach what I consider to be a very good OW class, on the spectrum of what's available. It's not GUE Rec 1, but for a PADI class, it is longer than the normal, and includes quite a bit of extra material that my husband thinks is important. However, whether you like it or not, the standard OW class is designed to teach the vacation diver, who will be renting equipment and following a guide, how to put on and operate his equipment, and how to manage a variety of common failures. The OW class does not include much that is necessary for the person deciding to own his own gear. We talk a little bit about the differences among tanks -- working pressures and volumes -- but not about different buoyancy characteristics, and although I haven't read the new OW manual from cover to cover, I can tell you there are no Knowledge Review, quiz, or exam questions on that topic, so if it is mentioned, it is brief. Lift, as a function of tank selection and exposure protection, is also not discussed. Hose routing is not even mentioned, except to educate the diver to put the regulators on his or her right. Hose length is mentioned in our class, briefly, because we do discuss primary versus secondary donation. We spend time on how to determine proper weighting, but much less on how to adjust static weighting for correct trim, something which can become extremely counterintuitive with doubles, as my experience with my stubborn husband who kept insisting that he needed more weight up high to correct his seahorse posture in his doubles served to illustrate.

There simply is not time in a basic OW class to cover all the information about tanks, weighting, lift, hoses, etcetera, especially since much of that information will be irrelevant to a substantial proportion of the divers we train. Time is spent, instead, on trying to convey critical information, like gas planning, buddy awareness, and good buoyancy and propulsion.

I made the transition to doubles without a class, and I think most people can. BUT -- I had a TON of information available to me to read, and I had a lot of experienced local help. Rjack was generous enough to do my first doubles dive with me, and if I remember right, he was also the person who explained the gas flow through a manifold, something I just hadn't wrapped my head around, despite my reading. I dove my doubles initially as though they were a very large single tank (with more failure points :) ), with the same intention we generally have with single tanks -- if something went seriously wrong, rather than try to solve it underwater, I would simply end the dive. I taught myself to do valve drills, which was unfortunate, because they would have been easier had I had someone to correct my technique. I have also shut off all my gas on more than one occasion, which I handled okay, but is not something I would say all divers, especially inexperienced ones, would handle with aplomb.

I think Adobo hit the nail on the head a while back. For those of us who have been around a while and done a few things, it's almost impossible to remember what it was like to know very little -- sometimes, not even to know the questions we needed to ask, because we didn't know enough to think of the questions! I remember first learning about gas management, and being stunned. The analysis of wing failure with steel doubles and a thick wetsuit was pretty daunting, too. One of the reasons I often recommend formal instruction is that a class has a curriculum, which ensures that the appropriate material is covered, whereas a mentor may not go over something which has become so much second nature to him that he no longer remembers having learned it.

But yes, you can put on a set of doubles and dive them without any instruction whatsoever. You may be awkward, and you have no business playing with your valves at that point, but if you're conservative, you likely won't kill yourself. The learning curve will be much steeper and shorter if you have some help, and to maximize your knowledge and skill, a mixture of mentoring and formal instruction is probably ideal.

Someone who is asking about how many spgs you need, likely has a lot of knowledge deficits and would benefit from some guidance from someone who knows a bit more than he does. I think that's what Tobin meant at the beginning, and I'm really amazed at how heated (and in places quite impolite) this discussion has gotten. Like everything else in scuba, including doing it in the first place, you can teach yourself, you can learn from peers, or you can take classes. Some routes are riskier, longer, or bumpier than others. When the question someone is asking suggests that the match of their level with their question isn't a good one, I don't think there's anything wrong with answering their question and suggesting they find some help.
 
Agilis made the comment, quite some time ago (I copied the post and lost it, and don't want to go back and find it again) that all the issues involved in diving a doubles setup ought to have been covered in OW class. This irked me.
We teach what I consider to be a very good OW class, on the spectrum of what's available. It's not GUE Rec 1, but for a PADI class, it is longer than the normal, and includes quite a bit of extra material that my husband thinks is important. However, whether you like it or not, the standard OW class is designed to teach the vacation diver, who will be renting equipment and following a guide, how to put on and operate his equipment, and how to manage a variety of common failures. The OW class does not include much that is necessary for the person deciding to own his own gear. We talk a little bit about the differences among tanks -- working pressures and volumes -- but not about different buoyancy characteristics, and although I haven't read the new OW manual from cover to cover, I can tell you there are no Knowledge Review, quiz, or exam questions on that topic, so if it is mentioned, it is brief. Lift, as a function of tank selection and exposure protection, is also not discussed. Hose routing is not even mentioned, except to educate the diver to put the regulators on his or her right. Hose length is mentioned in our class, briefly, because we do discuss primary versus secondary donation. We spend time on how to determine proper weighting, but much less on how to adjust static weighting for correct trim, something which can become extremely counterintuitive with doubles, as my experience with my stubborn husband who kept insisting that he needed more weight up high to correct his seahorse posture in his doubles served to illustrate.

There simply is not time in a basic OW class to cover all the information about tanks, weighting, lift, hoses, etcetera, especially since much of that information will be irrelevant to a substantial proportion of the divers we train. Time is spent, instead, on trying to convey critical information, like gas planning, buddy awareness, and good buoyancy and propulsion.

I made the transition to doubles without a class, and I think most people can. BUT -- I had a TON of information available to me to read, and I had a lot of experienced local help. Rjack was generous enough to do my first doubles dive with me, and if I remember right, he was also the person who explained the gas flow through a manifold, something I just hadn't wrapped my head around, despite my reading. I dove my doubles initially as though they were a very large single tank (with more failure points :) ), with the same intention we generally have with single tanks -- if something went seriously wrong, rather than try to solve it underwater, I would simply end the dive. I taught myself to do valve drills, which was unfortunate, because they would have been easier had I had someone to correct my technique. I have also shut off all my gas on more than one occasion, which I handled okay, but is not something I would say all divers, especially inexperienced ones, would handle with aplomb.

I think Adobo hit the nail on the head a while back. For those of us who have been around a while and done a few things, it's almost impossible to remember what it was like to know very little -- sometimes, not even to know the questions we needed to ask, because we didn't know enough to think of the questions! I remember first learning about gas management, and being stunned. The analysis of wing failure with steel doubles and a thick wetsuit was pretty daunting, too. One of the reasons I often recommend formal instruction is that a class has a curriculum, which ensures that the appropriate material is covered, whereas a mentor may not go over something which has become so much second nature to him that he no longer remembers having learned it.

But yes, you can put on a set of doubles and dive them without any instruction whatsoever. You may be awkward, and you have no business playing with your valves at that point, but if you're conservative, you likely won't kill yourself. The learning curve will be much steeper and shorter if you have some help, and to maximize your knowledge and skill, a mixture of mentoring and formal instruction is probably ideal.

Someone who is asking about how many spgs you need, likely has a lot of knowledge deficits and would benefit from some guidance from someone who knows a bit more than he does. I think that's what Tobin meant at the beginning, and I'm really amazed at how heated (and in places quite impolite) this discussion has gotten. Like everything else in scuba, including doing it in the first place, you can teach yourself, you can learn from peers, or you can take classes. Some routes are riskier, longer, or bumpier than others. When the question someone is asking suggests that the match of their level with their question isn't a good one, I don't think there's anything wrong with answering their question and suggesting they find some help.

What I wrote was that someone properly certified should easily be able to learn the requirements connected with weighting and buoyancy changes and new configurations connected to the use of doubles, and that these specific issues were not essentially different from those involved with a larger single tank. I wrote that the holder of a legitimate ow certification should be familiar with these issues, and should also be capable of learning most technical gear aspects without the need for formal training.

I realize that most newly certified OW and AOWs are woefully undertrained, and that what I wrote reflected the ideal, not the situation as it exists.

In my opinion any decent and honest OW course should provide enough instruction about diving theory and equipment functioning to give a diver an understanding of how technical things work, to the extent that they understand their equipment, especially regulators, tanks, valves, BCDs and the fundamentals of trim and buoyancy. Anything less is unsafe, and limits a new diver's ability to function independently and expand their skills, independently when appropriate, when an instruction manual is provided with what is really just basic hardware, or with assistance for things completely new, as with a computer for some people who have never used one.

My understanding of a fully certified diver is one who can operate independently, provide as much assistance to their buddy as they receive, configure their own equipment and check their diving partner's with requisite skill, and plan their own dives without supervision.

I am painfully aware of the inability of many newly certified divers to do these things. I've seen them, with fear and apprehension in their eyes, or worse, blithely doing dangerous things with no understanding. Much of what I wrote was motivated more by my anger at what passes for training and less by anything connected with diving double tanks since my experience with doubles is limited to some diving years ago with simple manifolds, but never with isolation manifolds, about which I know almost nothing, something I mentioned in my very first post.

I first used doubles with a cheater bar back in the late 70s, but quickly figured out that this configuration was unstable, and that there were three and not just one o ring to potentially blow out. I replaced the cheater bar with a Dacor single regulator simple manifold. Those 40cf tanks had only 2250 psi limits.

I stopped using them long ago, and entered this discussion looking for an updated version so I could use double 3000 psi 40cf din bottles for the simple recreation dives I now do, in a manner that would be easier on my aging back. Better weight distribution, lower profile. Because of my intended use I was annoyed by those who felt formal training in the use of any doubles was a virtual necessity. It is not, or at least it should not be.

People misread and misremember in ways that reflect their own concerns. I wrote, or at least meant to write, primarily about diver training and related learning skills. That it was interpreted by some people as a commentary on isolation valves is probably my fault.

Training classes for vacation divers who do not own their own equipment, who must follow a guide, and who have very limited skills and information should not produce Open Water certified divers. They are really still students who require supervision and should not be considered fully certified. This is not just semantics, because Open Water certification has historically had a very different meaning. I think selling these half-trained students equipment is the primary reason they are given certifications to which they are not really entitled, leading to all sorts of problems, including the issues that underlie this discussion.

Sell them equipment if you must, but refuse to fill their tanks unless they have a real OW C card with all the independent skills that implies.
 
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I have never heard of any sort of training specific to diving double, other than Intro to Tec kinda stuff... which is obviously a lot more than just diving doubles.

Really, it isn't necessary to take a course every time you visit a dive shop...

Actually BSAC (British Sub Aqua Club) do a skills development course called twinset diving, and covers the basics of using back mounted doubles, covers the difference between independent doubles, manifolded doubles, isolated manifolded doubles and sidemount. I agree that it isn't necessary to take a course for everything, I didn't for sidemount and 'think' I have my setup dialled in quite well. But I tried back mounted doubles once before and didn't get on with it. I have just done the twinset course through my local club and have actually been surprised at how much it told me that I didn't know.

Do I need a card to dive a twinset? - No - but I do need to know what I need to know, and then learn it and I have found this a great way, in a club environment, with experienced twinset divers to learn it from. The instructor knew very little about sidemount diving, except what was in the training materials so I brought my sidemount set-up in so we could compare and contrast it with the way others had their twinsets set up. We had examples of all the various options, including different styles of wing and backplate etc. to look at.

I now feel a lot more confident to dive manifolded twins and understand the decisions on configuration options I need to make and the reasons why I would configure it one way rather than another for my sort of diving.

It was pleasant to be treated like an adult and be told here is the theory and pitfalls, here are your options, now go make informed choices and dive safely. - Phil
 
Training classes for vacation divers who do not own their own equipment, who must follow a guide, and who have very limited skills and information should not produce Open Water certified divers.

Maybe not, but that is the reality today. Wishing it was something else won't change that *fact*

I'd love to see higher training standards, but again that isn't reality.

Sell them equipment if you must, but refuse to fill their tanks unless they have a real OW C card with all the independent skills that implies.

Er, ah, well now. What exactly does a "Real OW C card" look like? DM? Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures maybe?

Here again it's simply a fantasy to expect a dive shop to deny selling a service to a paying customer who presents the industry mandated minimum credentials for a fill.

Love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation: "Sure we are happy to take your money for a reg, BC, cylinder and computer, but I can't fill your tank 'cus I know we inadequately trained you"

So where do the current realities leave us? I'd suggest at a point where very little harm is done by prompting divers to seek qualified training when they need it......

Tobin
 
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I think part of the backlash in this discussion has more to do with a trend we sometimes see on the board in general than this case in particular. There is a sub theme of taking a course for every aspect of diving that often comes up and I think some people react reflexively when training is mentioned. I know I get a bit defensive around the whole concept of self learning because it is a big part of how I like to approach things. I sometimes try to provide a counter point so that the prevailing status quo on the one board I like to frequent doesn't become "self learning is wrong/bad/irresponsible". I totally ok with people choosing one form of learning but don't want my style denigrated.

Not saying that was happening here but it probably explains some of the back and forth.
 
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