double tank equipment

[rx7diver]

I think part of the backlash in this discussion has more to do with...

Maybe, DaleC, but ego, hubris, and zealotry frequently come to mind whenever I read the posts of some of us here. Why is it that some people so fervently believe they have *the* answer to everyone's diving?! I often think that some of us here ought to get a hobby. Oh... wait...!

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

 

[DaleC]

I dunno, I admit to getting into it a bit myself sometimes. Once in a while I find myself really getting worked up about some point and feeling it is so important to win to the extent of being rude and then I have this sort of "is this the way I want to present myself" moment... but it passes
I also realize I would probably never talk that way in real life and would just walk away but the internet is so good at making me feel witty in my retorts. In real life I'm more tongue twisted and slow witted.

 

[Bob DBF]

Maybe, DaleC, but ego, hubris, and zealotry frequently come to mind whenever I read the posts of some of us here. Why is it that some people so fervently believe they have *the* answer to everyone's diving?! I often think that some of us here ought to get a hobby. Oh... wait...!

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

Because of the short time-frame of classes little SCUBA history is mentioned, so each diver thinks that diving was always the way it is taught to him and that continues on as he becomes a "professional", and no other way is possible. Some get over that and some don't, and this mindset is not exclusive to SCUBA. I am not opposed to formal training, however I don't care for it being touted as the only safe way, especially when years ago there was no formal training and we had to figure it out for ourselves or find a more experienced diver for help. "Tech" diving, for instance, was going on decades before that name or classes, it was just advanced diving using the US Navy Diving Manual as a guide.

On the positive side, over the years on ScubaBoard I have noticed that formal training, informal training, and self training are used in the discussions rather than just "training", meaning a class by an agency and anything else was not worth mentioning and probably fatal. This change has moderated my response, as feeling targeted by a lack of formal training (most of which was not available when I started and redundant when finally available) has dissipated. As long as all types of training are discussed and available, I really don't have a dog in the fight, and try to respond accordingly.



Bob
-----------------------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

 

[AfterDark]

Using doubles without training. We know nothing of the original posters intentions.

I've seen far too many newer divers who assume that "doubles" simply means more gas. They are ignorant of the risks associated with extended bottom times and gas planing, the increased number of failure points, the protocols for dealing with the failures, the proper operation of a manifold, both in the water and at the fill station. etc. etc. etc.

Were these topics in your BOW class?

This is exactly why I recommended "competent training" Note I did not suggest he needed a full Trimix cert.

Tobin

Training for doubles? What is that anyway? I've been diving doubles on and off since the 1980's never had one minute of "doubles training" and have been able to keep from getting killed for decades. Do you own shares in a double training class or something?

 

[cool_hardware52]

Training for doubles? What is that anyway? I've been diving doubles on and off since the 1980's never had one minute of "doubles training" and have been able to keep from getting killed for decades. Do you own shares in a double training class or something?

Geez, here we go again. No, I don't teach, and I have no interest in any entity that does. I do have, as all divers should, an interest in the safety of the sport overall, the public's perception of the sport, and tempering the government's urges to further regulate the sport.

Avoiding needless accidents furthers all of my interests.

What interests of yours are furthered by publicly beating your chest and declaring competent instruction unnecessary?

Tobin

 

[FinnMom]

Can the inflamatory words like "beating your chest". He's declaring competent formal instruction unnecessary because it often is. We want people to know this because we don't want opportunity/possibility of learning to have a dollar sign hanging over it.

Many persons have posted in this thread to generally say that formal training is not required for all steps in one's development as a diver. This serves our interests in encouraging people to learn from reading, independent practise, mentors, camps, seminars and many other sources. We want students and newer divers to feel like the first step in learning is NOT that you have to pull out your wallet. No doubt you can benefit greatly from professional training, but if your wallet won't allow that except when truely needed, it doesn't mean you are out of the game.

Many things do require formal training and certification, no arguement there.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Can the inflamatory words like "beating your chest".

Is suggesting that I'm motivated by money not inflammatory? It's clearly intended to be insulting.

He's declaring competent instruction unnecessary because it often is.

Ya, much better to do without or rely on incompetent instruction, for example determining how a manifold works based on years of diving experience, armature plumbing projects, schematics and pure logic........ we've been treated to how well that works in this very thread.

We want people to know this because we don't want opportunity/possibility of learning to have a dollar sign hanging over it.

Please tell when I've *ever* suggested one need to exchange $$ for instruction? I assure you I never have, but I have no problem paying for expertise when I need it, I've never seen it as some sort of weakness or character flaw to pay for professional instruction.

Would you climb off your high horse if I said "find a competent mentor" or is there some special bragging rights to publicly proclaiming to have never spent a dime for instruction?

Tobin

 

[FinnMom]

You are right: I wrote that "competent" instruction was not necessary and I meant "formal", more specifically formal training requiring that a fee be paid.

Did not intend to imply that anyone in this thread was selling anything, or that your opinions were based on financial gain.

"Your high horse", "bragging rights" and the implication that I haven't spent money on formal instruction are inflamatory bluster and not constructive.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You are right: I wrote that "competent" instruction was not necessary and I meant "formal", more specifically formal training requiring that a fee be paid.

Did not intend to imply that anyone in this thread was selling anything, or that your opinions were based on financial gain.

"Your high horse", "bragging rights" and the implication that I haven't spent money on formal instruction are inflamatory bluster and not constructive.

You chastised me for using "inflammatory" language in responding to DarkStar, who quite clearly accused me of basing my opinions on financial gain.

The fact of the matter is I routinely reject the opportunity to sell gear to new divers who imagine they will be diving doubles shortly after mastering their first back plate and wing. I run into these guys all the time. It's mostly enthusiasm, but they want a back plate, single wing, doubles wing and all the trimmings 9 dives after they finish BOW.

The last thing I want is to facilitate some over eager newbie strapping on a set of faber MP 120's and jumping in wearing his 7mm farmer john wetsuit.

My standard advice to these folks is to start with a single rig, and if and when they make the leap to doubles to call me back and I'd be happy to walk them through the process of sizing a doubles wing.

I could of course encourage them to go ahead and buy some doubles and 2nd wing and *go for it* after all no formal training is required right? But I consider this unethical and irresponsible. I'd much rather help develop a safe diver that participates in the sport for a long time.

Tobin

 

[AfterDark]

Is suggesting that I'm motivated by money not inflammatory? It's clearly intended to be insulting.




Ya, much better to do without or rely on incompetent instruction, for example determining how a manifold works based on years of diving experience, armature plumbing projects, schematics and pure logic........ we've been treated to how well that works in this very thread.



Please tell when I've *ever* suggested one need to exchange $$ for instruction? I assure you I never have, but I have no problem paying for expertise when I need it, I've never seen it as some sort of weakness or character flaw to pay for professional instruction.

Would you climb off your high horse if I said "find a competent mentor" or is there some special bragging rights to publicly proclaiming to have never spent a dime for instruction?

Tobin

I was kidding about the classes. I do disagree that formal instruction is necessary for the use of doubles. The skills involved are simple and easy to learn on ones own. You can disagree all you want but this hardly is some kind of danger to the safety of diving! IMO the current training structure does a fine job endangering new divers by withholding information they "don't need for OW" . As you can see by reading this thread there are others that started diving doubles on their own and are alive to post about!

I'm trying to think of the last A&I I read that involved an untrained diver using doubles. Can anybody help me out?

---------- Post added June 20th, 2015 at 08:57 PM ----------

Geez, here we go again. No, I don't teach, and I have no interest in any entity that does. I do have, as all divers should, an interest in the safety of the sport overall, the public's perception of the sport, and tempering the government's urges to further regulate the sport.

Avoiding needless accidents furthers all of my interests.

What interests of yours are furthered by publicly beating your chest and declaring competent instruction unnecessary?

Tobin

Declaring competent instruction unnecessary? It reads ike you mean in general? Hope not that would be a lie. I was pretty clear I don't see the need for formal instruction for doubles, not in general. I'm all for competent instruction but formal instruction for a simple piece of equipment like this is a waste of time.

My only interest is the truth.