Don't move the upline!

[limeyx]

Actually I don't agree with this practice,

Not the way it usually works around here either (unless you get a lazy boat)

anchor belongs to the boat. Boat person is responsible for putting it down and getting it back (and not moving it while we are diving).

If boat person cannot get it back, tough for boat person.

We will sometimes check the anchor on descent (partly to make sure it's not going anywhere!) and if really snagged, maybe free it a little, but that's it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not the way it usually works around here either (unless you get a lazy boat)

anchor belongs to the boat. Boat person is responsible for putting it down and getting it back (and not moving it while we are diving).

If boat person cannot get it back, tough for boat person.

We will sometimes check the anchor on descent (partly to make sure it's not going anywhere!) and if really snagged, maybe free it a little, but that's it.

With respect, you get a different set of issues to deal with where you dive ... more waves and surge, but less current.

It's common for boats to hook wrecks here because if they don't they often WILL move the anchor ... whether they intend to or not.

As I've said, this is Mike's policy. He's upfront about it. There's nothing "lazy" involved ... if you don't agree with the boat policy, don't dive on that boat.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

Well I guess I've been to this site enough times to realize that any anchor I put down there will get snagged. People (myself included) tend to minimize the scope to it. So they drag through the sporadic sand patches until hooking on a beam.

Putting a shot line down has the benefit of not tearing off wood, not having a boat attached dragging it along, and not requiring it to be moved. Divers don't have to run search patterns cause you can drop it on the messiest parts of the wreck and the weights rarely get stuck. 10lbs is plenty to pull yourself down the first 25ft or so if you need a little help.

The only complication posed by this approach is the divers need to be put in upstream enough to be ready to go once they drift down to it. That can be an issue, but its a surface issue. I'd much rather have more complicated surface issues than more complicated UW issues.

The free ascent should be a non-issue at this site. Don't do this dive if you require an upline. There are other boat dives with upslope ascents or safer upline opportunities. This one requires a free ascent 3/4s of my dives there (~half dozen).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The only complication posed by this approach is the divers need to be put in upstream enough to be ready to go once they drift down to it. That can be an issue, but its a surface issue. I'd much rather have more complicated surface issues than more complicated UW issues.

Surface issues here can be pretty intense. I recall a dive I did with Uncle Pug where we dropped a lanyard over the side (to attach equipment to after the dive) ... only to watch the bolt-snap skipping on the surface due to the strength of the current. We did a bow entry and pulled our way down the anchor line. Fortunately, once we were down about 20 feet the current died completely.

The free ascent should be a non-issue at this site. Don't do this dive if you require an upline. There are other boat dives with upslope ascents or safer upline opportunities. This one requires a free ascent 3/4s of my dives there (~half dozen).

When diving off an anchored boat, you really don't want to ascend behind the boat. Surface current can pull you away from the boat pretty quickly ... and if there are other divers down the captain then has to decide whether to wait for them or come after you.

In this case, I'm gratified to have read that the less-experienced divers were able to free-ascend without incident ... since they were former students of mine, and learned that skill in their AOW class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

The boat was live after he released his attachment to the hook, which is what allowed TS&M to move it. So no matter what their's was a live pickup, which is the right thing to do here. The surface currents are strong enough here that its a rare day when the windage on the boat blows it differently than the divers get carried by the current.

I hate to see divers beating themselves up over this when the problem began with the skipper. I can guarantee that unless there was 400+ ft of line on the hook the only reason the boat stopped moving was because it had snagged on something big and lumpy.

Even though Mike is one of Puget Sound's most experienced skippers I think his approach for this dive was wrong. I don't know whether he has actually dove this site himself or not. So I don't know what was going through his head asking his recreational clients to move his anchor after he releases the boat.

But in general it seems like skippers know less and less about how to optimally dive our local sites. The skippers are too reliant on the divers to know what they are doing and or have familiarity with the plan/options. I guess because they are not getting out and diving that much themselves.

And in many instances the divers don't know the site or don't know why the plan may be so-so, or won't speak up about a flawed plan cause they figure the skipper knows what he's doing. I have observed this first hand on Bandito, now hear about it with Porthole, and have definately seen this issue with Mr. Aluminator cause he's not even a diver. He practically anchored on top of Doug, Sharan and I at the Alki fishing reef.

Maybe there is a Puget Sound business opportunity for my USCG license afterall.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

I for one am glad that people share mistakes--even the big ones so I can learn.

There isn't a single diver that has learned everything or experienced everything--at some point the water will try to teach each one of us a lesson. Better if we have learned something about that pop quiz before the ocean or lakes decide it is quiz time.

 

[limeyx]

With respect, you get a different set of issues to deal with where you dive ... more waves and surge, but less current.

It's common for boats to hook wrecks here because if they don't they often WILL move the anchor ... whether they intend to or not.

As I've said, this is Mike's policy. He's upfront about it. There's nothing "lazy" involved ... if you don't agree with the boat policy, don't dive on that boat.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

True.
The "really good" captains here (of which I know exactly 1) will usually use a drop line if possible even with a current. I am not sure how practical that is in the PNW style currents.

Sometimes if the wreck is not especially delicate, he will drop an anchor on or near the wreck, but the shot line is preferred.

Not sure how much current it takes to move a 48 pound hunk of lead -- maybe PNW currents would simply tear that away in seconds.

I still think the boat owns the anchor and if it gets trapped they need to have a DM or employee who will dive down and free it.

Do you also have to pay for the engines if they catch on fire? Or for hull repairs if the captain snags the reef ?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I still think the boat owns the anchor and if it gets trapped they need to have a DM or employee who will dive down and free it.

Do you also have to pay for the engines if they catch on fire? Or for hull repairs if the captain snags the reef ?

No, but as I've stated a couple of times, Mike caters to tech divers. Wouldn't be practical to send a DM down on the Al in Desk a Sea to retrieve an anchor, as it sits at about 220.

It would be interesting to know what the protocol is for boats who do deep wrecks in other parts of the world. Granted, this particular dive was on a shallow wreck ... but I can see where he'd apply the same policy in this case.

I still don't have an issue with any boat policy, as long as the captain is upfront about it before I sign up for the trip ... as long as there's full disclosure, it's my choice to either go along with it or find a different boat to dive on.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

Not sure how much current it takes to move a 48 pound hunk of lead -- maybe PNW currents would simply tear that away in seconds.

We generally use something lighter, ~10lbs for low currents, 15-20lbs for more. After that its danged heavy to lift without a windlass. Fragile wrecks tend to be in Lk WA where current is a minor issue (although the seiche can be noticable at times)

 

[rjack321]

No, but as I've stated a couple of times, Mike caters to tech divers. Wouldn't be practical to send a DM down on the Al in Desk a Sea to retrieve an anchor, as it sits at about 220.

It would be interesting to know what the protocol is for boats who do deep wrecks in other parts of the world. Granted, this particular dive was on a shallow wreck ... but I can see where he'd apply the same policy in this case.

Depending on the boat, staff hook and unhook wrecks in the 220 range on the East Coast. I have heard of this practice on the Doria. When clients have paid $1,000s for a trip they don't want to waste their gas on what are preceived as boat duties.

BTW, despite having been on Porthole 4-6 times this in the first I've heard of his "pay for the hook" policy. Its not written down on his disclosure forms as I recall.

The whole shenanagins could have been avoided by using a shot line - right into the middle of the wreck. It would have had enough purchase for divers to help themselves down below the surface currents but without a hook to snag, move, or pay for.

Really this "near miss" wasn't TS&M's fault, it was the skipper's unnecessarily complicated plan that probably sounded fine on the surface but doesn't work. It won't work unless everyone arrives at the bottom simulateously and understands how the hook has been moved. Or starts using spools or other devices, all or which are unnecessary.