Don't move the upline!

[limeyx]

Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a post by TS&M where she calimed expertise, she just offers opinions, which are usually pretty good.

I know you didn't mean it "that way" but ... ouch!

 

[rjack321]

To answer your question, this is a commercial charter ... a basic six-pack boat. The standard agreement with the captain is that divers will unhook the anchor when they leave the wreck. In the event that the anchor is not unhooked ... and subsequently is lost ... divers will pay the captain to replace it.

Everyone who dives on this boat knows it. He typically caters to tech divers or those with sufficient experience to know how to do deal with moving an anchor ... sometimes you're doing this on wrecks that are very deep ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Actually I don't agree with this practice, eps. since this site has very high snag potential (and wreck damage too). If this were my boat I'd deploy a shot line which has a non-snagging weight on the bottom. Then the divers need not move it. Its a live boat pickup anyway. The divers can either come back up the shot or do a free ascent. If you can't do a reasonable free ascent you shouldn't be at this site.

The plan to have the hook moved, then not having all the divers in at the same time was flawed from the start. There's no need on a 70ft wreck to be deploying cookies and such. Or paying for hooks. That approach might have worked, but why ask recreational divers to increase the complexity of their plans when simple changes on the part of the paid skipper will do the job.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

One should never remove someone elses cookie. There should be 2 teams placing cookies and yes most dive problems stem from improper pre-dive briefing.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's to never say never ... the important thing is for the teams to establish a protocol and follow it during the dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Respectfully - you would never be my buddy.

Respectfully, she doesn't need to ... Lynne will NEVER hurt for dive buddies ...

I don't think I've ever met anyone who puts more effort into correcting her mistakes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually I don't agree with this practice, eps. since this site has very high snag potential (and wreck damage too). If this were my boat I'd deploy a shot line which has a non-snagging weight on the bottom. Then the divers need not move it. Its a live boat pickup anyway. The divers can either come back up the shot or do a free ascent. If you can't do a reasonable free ascent you shouldn't be at this site.

You'd deply a shot line on Possession Point ferry ...

This I gotta see. Might work to hold a zodiac ... but definitely wouldn't work for a boat the size of Mike's ... you'd just drag it along till it either snagged something or you lost sight of the dive site.

Wreck damage? Geez ... you've dived there, right?

We ain't discussing Lake Washington, ya know.

The plan to have the hook moved, then not having all the divers in at the same time was flawed from the start.

I agree ... that was the first, and biggest mistake.

There's no need on a 70ft wreck to be deploying cookies and such. Or paying for hooks. That approach might have worked, but why ask recreational divers to increase the complexity of their plans when simple changes on the part of the paid skipper will do the job.

What I was discussing was a general boat policy ... whether it's the Possession Point ferry or the Al in Desk a Sea. If ya don't like the policy, don't dive on that boat ... there are other options available. As I said, Mike typically caters to tech divers.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

Missdirected, while you are obviously free to decline to dive with whomever, I believe you are incorrect that TSandM made "too many" mistakes to be a safe diver. As far as I can tell, she made just one mistake which was to defer to her two teammates when she thought they were making a mistake. Perhaps that is a "fatal" mistake for you, but just what DO you do when in a team of three and your position is contrary to the other two AND you aren't really sure YOUR position is the correct one? (And, as here, the other two are doing what the 4th teammate (boat captain) asked them to do?)

ALL of the other mistakes here were made by the other two teammates. (Which I guess means you'd never dive with me either -- perhaps to both of our benefits?)

BTW, I've read posts by TSandM that, indeed, do claim expertise and those are in the medical/science arena where she does, in fact, have expertise. She also has a significant amount of learned expertise in "DIW" (doing it wrong) diving (descents on her back, mid-water disorientation, etc.) and I believe she has expertly written on those items -- which appear to have benefitted others with the same ills.

Missd -- I am forced to ask you "Why" did you post what you did? Especially, why start your post with the "you would never be my buddy" statement? What did THAT add to this thread?

------

Note, I certainly hope this post isn't taken other than as intended:

1. To set the record straight as to who made the big mistakes (me); and

2. To ask the question of Missd that perplexes me -- Why write what she did? Towards what end?

 

[rjack321]

You'd deply a shot line on Possession Point ferry ...

This I gotta see. Might work to hold a zodiac ... but definitely wouldn't work for a boat the size of Mike's ... you'd just drag it along till it either snagged something or you lost sight of the dive site.

Wreck damage? Geez ... you've dived there, right?

Yes I would deploy a shot line. And I have done it a couple of times at the Kelowken. It works fine. Shot lines are never attached to the boat. Just drop the divers in 50-100ft upstream and they'll drift right down to it. There's enough mass (8-10 lbs) on the bottom to help them get down if they need a little help.

And yes despite being an artificial reef, I wouldn't want to have anchors and lines snagging on it. The remaining ribs are very nice for photography and tearing them off with an anchor or grapple would be senseless.

Paid skippers should arrange dive plans and cater to the lowest common denominator on the boat. And Mike didn't do that, bad Mike. Lesson learned I hope.

 

[TSandM]

You know, just to clarify, if I remember correctly, what Mike told us was that IF we saw the anchor caught where it was likely to be difficult to retrieve, would we please move it. He thought he had dropped it off the wreck, but wasn't sure. I guess it still makes it part of the dive plan to move the anchor, but I don't think he really expected we would have to.

 

[rjack321]

You know, just to clarify, if I remember correctly, what Mike told us was that IF we saw the anchor caught where it was likely to be difficult to retrieve, would we please move it. He thought he had dropped it off the wreck, but wasn't sure. I guess it still makes it part of the dive plan to move the anchor, but I don't think he really expected we would have to.

I tried anchoring there a couple times. Snags everytime. They put a bunch of concrete beams down when they made the reef and the beams have a magnetic attraction to anchors. Ever since I have used a shot with a heavy enough weight to allow a diver to help themselves down through the surface current if needed, but without any "hooking" potential. Works great. Surprised Mike didn't set the dive up similarly.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Every commercial boat I've ever dived with for this wreck uses an anchor. Some will put a shot line down off the stern for divers to follow down ... primarily because surface current here is notorious, and it'd be a major PITA to try swimming to the bow to follow the anchor line down to the wreck. And as it's a recreational dive, they really don't expect people to be using reels and circular search patterns to locate the wreck.

I think the main reason you are "surprised" that Mike didn't do as you would is that you approach this like a tech diver, and he was trying to accommodate people who don't have tech skills and training.

This was, to my concern, mostly a communication issue ... or more accurately, a lack of communication issue. Had the contingency for moving the anchor been a part of the dive briefing, and had the protocol that was established during that briefing been followed, then I seriously doubt there would've been anything to discuss.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)