Doing it Right

[ucfdiver]

There's several innovative companies out there now offering serious alternatives to Halcyon equipment ... many at far lower prices. Much of that equipment is made here in the USA, and has already established a track record for quality and reliability.

I can't think of many innovative companies offering alternatives to Halcyon gear. A few maybe, but far from many.

FWIW I don't consider skipping R&D by stealing a design and making it cheaper "innovative".

 

[danvolker]

I believe Dive Rite's entry into the BP/W market was the TransPlate, right? That would've been 2002/2003 time frame. Prior to that they were only offering the TransPac.


Hyperbole like that doesn't help you make your case ... as you pointed out, the world has changed a lot, even in the last few years. There's several innovative companies out there now offering serious alternatives to Halcyon equipment ... many at far lower prices. Much of that equipment is made here in the USA, and has already established a track record for quality and reliability. All this nonsense about talking computers is just taking us back to the bad old days ... projecting DIR as an elitist club that makes fun of everyone who's not them. You're better than that, Dan.

As for colors ... isn't the latest rage at Halcyon a pink wing?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I am sure you know I am trying to open up DIR and make it friendly to all divers--not elitist.
Many of the companies you are referring to, should in fact gain credit for what they are accomplishing....I was just getting the feeling that too many divers are just flat out saying that there is NO reason to pay the extra money....and I disagreed.....but more importantly.....who is sporting a pink wing

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I can't think of many innovative companies offering alternatives to Halcyon gear. A few maybe, but far from many.

FWIW I don't consider skipping R&D by stealing a design and making it cheaper "innovative".

I didn't say many ... I said several.

DSS tops my list ... I know Tobin personally, and have toured his facility. He's the consummate free-thinker and his products are the result of his own R&D.

Other alternatives, to my mind would be Golem, Oxycheq, Hollis, Hog/Edge ... heck, DiveRite's new wings look pretty nice to me.

Are you suggesting all those companies stole their designs from Halcyon?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

I didn't say many ... I said several.

DSS tops my list ... I know Tobin personally, and have toured his facility. He's the consummate free-thinker and his products are the result of his own R&D.

Other alternatives, to my mind would be Golem, Oxycheq, Hollis, Hog/Edge ... heck, DiveRite's new wings look pretty nice to me.

Are you suggesting all those companies stole their designs from Halcyon?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

How about this....today, all "regulator" and scuba tank mfg's owe their present product line to Cousteu and Gagnon and US Divers. Without their innovation, the sport did not exist beyond freediving and hard hat diving.
Scubapro and dive Rite and Oxycheq "owe" their bp/wing lines to Halcyon, because Halcyon created this market...though I'm not sure "market" is the word I am going for here

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am sure you know I am trying to open up DIR and make it friendly to all divers--not elitist.

I do ... and I seriously wish you success ... which is why I think it's important to consider how you put things. Most of the folks reading this thread do not have your perspective or knowledge of where we came from to get to where we are today, and therefore it's a better idea to focus on the merits of the equipment and methods of DIR, rather than the shortcomings that led to its development.

Many of the companies you are referring to, should in fact gain credit for what they are accomplishing....I was just getting the feeling that too many divers are just flat out saying that there is NO reason to pay the extra money....and I disagreed.

Divers tend to be chronic penny pinchers ... as evidenced by the many threads bemoaning dive shop prices. But as with all things in life, you get what you pay for. Those who are attracted to DIR are generally people who are willing to pay premium prices for premium products ... whether it's in the form of training or equipment. That's Halcyon's target audience ... and with those folks, there is no need to "sell" them ... they're already sold ...

...but more importantly.....who is sporting a pink wing

Around here ... the She-P lady ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Scott T C]

THANK YOU!

This is what I was looking for...someone to explain it to me. Yea, it's my fault as I didn't word the main post properly...I do apologize for that...but Grateful, thank you...that is what I wanted to hear.

Thanks again for an excellent explanation!

Scott

The course your friend took was most likely Fundamentals ... which is an excellent course. It is not, however, all the course you will ever need. Fundamentals focuses on certain core skills ... trim and buoyancy control, buddy skills, air management skills, propulsion techniques ... and it builds those skills around a very specific "platform" of diving equipment. It's an excellent class for recreational diving, or for entry into technical diving.

It is not ... however ... all the course you will need. It does not, for example, teach you fundamental rescue skills. It doesn't even touch on underwater navigation or search and recovery. It teaches you nothing about planning and preparing for limited visibility diving ... nor a host of other skills that are needful for a recreational diver who aspires to dive in a variety of conditions.

There is no "magic bullet" ... Fundamental is what it is ... a good start. A lot of people come out of it with an excess of enthusiasm because it opens their eyes to things they never were introduced to in earlier classes ... but, frankly, it was created as a remedial skills class for people who aspired to dive in caves or other types of overhead ... in other words, it gives you the basics of what will be needful if you should ever decide to go into the more challenging environments commonly referred to as "tech diving".

I've taken the class ... twice, in fact ... and gotten a lot out of it both times. I've taken more than a dozen follow-on classes since ... from NAUI, TDI, IANTD, and NSS-CDS as well as several workshops that were "non-denominational" ... and I'll continue taking classes as I identify new techniques, equipment, or environments that I want to learn more about. I've taught NAUI classes in a shop that offered GUE ... and have heard the "why take anything but GUE classes" logic from others who were enthusiastic about what that particular class taught them. The best answer I can offer is "because GUE doesn't offer all the classes I want to take".

A popular diving magazine has these words at the top of the front cover ... "A Good Diver Is Always Learning". No one agency teaches everything there is to learn. No one approach to diving offers everything you'll ever need ... not in the broader sense of "you". We're all individuals, with individual goals, insights, learning styles, and interests. GUE may indeed be all your friend will ever need ... you may discover, as you learn more about diving, that there are other classes taught by other agencies out there that will open vistas for you that GUE does not. Or you may ... as I did ... come to realize that adherence to that one style of diving is too restrictive to scratch the itch you have for diving in a way that you want to pursue your interest.

Even the GUE instructors I've met will tell you to approach it with an open mind ... they are not just referring to what they will be able to teach you ... they're referring to diving as a whole. They don't want blind adherence to a system ... the most important thing they're trying to teach you is how to use your brain ... it's a valuable skill, and not one that always applies strictly to the context of a GUE class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Scott T C]

Bob has a very good point. There are any number of areas that GUE training doesn't cover well; and even if you absolutely master the Fundamentals curriculum, you're still going to be at a loss in conditions very different from what you are accustomed to.

But it is my personal opinion that every serious diver should take Fundamentals, or something similar, simply because attaining the degree of stability and poise in the water that they require RESULTS in more bandwidth, both to enjoy the dive, and to detect issues and cope with them before they become major.

I personally love diving within the DIR system. I love my gear, which is very neatly stowed (whether it's minimal or not, I won't debate, but it is neat) and all of which works very well in all the environments in which I have dived, from the South Pacific to Northern Vancouver Island. I love diving with buddies who are on the same page, and have strong skills. I am extremely grateful to have been taught high standards for performance to continue to hold myself against.

I have taken Fundamentals, Rec Triox, Cave 1 and Cave 2, and UTD Rec 2 and Rec 3 and Tech 1. They have all been very good classes, through which I have learned a great deal, and in which I have made long-lasting friendships. I think you'll have a lot of fun. The EE instructors have very good reputations. (Look at katenptl's recent report of her Fundies class with Doug Mudry.)

And just on another note -- why wouldn't you put this in Advanced? It's a student looking forward to what is definitely NOT an entry-level class, but it isn't technical. Does ALL discussion of DIR have to go in our own forum, so no one else will see it?

This too is what I was more trying to say. I guess I again used an improper word at the time. Clean and percise is what I should have said rather than minimilist. Just having that super clean, almost streamline setup to me is just such a phenominal improvement. You have less drag in the water, you know where everything is all neatly stowed away, etc.

Great post! Thank you.

Scott

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

How about this....today, all "regulator" and scuba tank mfg's owe their present product line to Cousteu and Gagnon and US Divers. Without their innovation, the sport did not exist beyond freediving and hard hat diving.
Scubapro and dive Rite and Oxycheq "owe" their bp/wing lines to Halcyon, because Halcyon created this market...though I'm not sure "market" is the word I am going for here

Oh, I think "market" is precisely the right word. But I don't think Halcyon created it ... they were just among the first to recognize that it was there.

Historically, you're correct about the regulators and scuba cylinders ... but if it were not those folks, someone else would have come along. That's the beauty of a free market ... when there's demand, there will be supply. Where there's money to be made ... someone will make it.

Halcyon was created to serve a specific group of divers ... and grew the business to address a broader audience. But as they encompassed that audience, the market they were trying to address began to include people who were already also being targeted by other companies. It can be claimed that companies like Halcyon and Dive Rite target similar audiences, in a certain sense ... it can also be claimed that they each tailor their products to people within that audience who have different tastes, needs, and personal preferences.

That's how industries grow ... competition within an industry is healthy. But the real competition isn't with the other companies who make and sell similar products ... it's with other industries who are competing for the recreational dollars of the consumer. I've always maintained that the best way to grow scuba as an industry would be for the manufacturers and vendors to stop trying to put each other out of business and grow some cooperative genes. Your real competition makes bicycles, skis and golf clubs ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Scott T C]

Arguably with BCDs, although as an owner of Halcyon and DSS, I have to say that I prefer the DSS system. That however is just my opinion.
As far as regs go I would take either Scubapro or Apeks over Halcyon anytime.

My new system consists of the following:

- Halcyon 30lb Eclipse MC System w/ ss Bckplate and 6lb Weighted STA
- XS Scuba Power Dive Fins (Installed springs instead of the rubber straps)
- 7mm XS Scuba Pyrostrech HD Booots (OMG, they are sooo comfortable)
- 2pc wet suit with a 7mm total over chest when both pieces are worn
- Hollis Pressure Guage
- Zeagle Emergency Locator Strobe/Flashlight
- Scubapro MK17 Din 300 w/ A700 Second Stage

I have been debating on a octo...I know some dive with one and others don't. I was always trained to have one...what are your thoughts on that? Any thoughts on my rig? Good? Bad? etc.

 

[boulderjohn]

My new system consists of the following:

- Halcyon 30lb Eclipse MC System w/ ss Bckplate and 6lb Weighted STA
- XS Scuba Power Dive Fins (Installed springs instead of the rubber straps)
- 7mm XS Scuba Pyrostrech HD Booots (OMG, they are sooo comfortable)
- 2pc wet suit with a 7mm total over chest when both pieces are worn
- Hollis Pressure Guage
- Zeagle Emergency Locator Strobe/Flashlight
- Scubapro MK17 Din 300 w/ A700 Second Stage

I have been debating on a octo...I know some dive with one and others don't. I was always trained to have one...what are your thoughts on that? Any thoughts on my rig? Good? Bad? etc.

If you are going to commit to DIR training, I suggest you learn more about it before purchasing any more equipment.

As someone who has newly learned about DIR, you really should go to the DIR section of ScubaBoard and other areas and learn more about it. Your enthusiasm is commendable, and the enthusiasm of your friend is commendable, but both come with a risk. Many people have very strong anti-DIR feelings, and many people downright hate it, not for what it is in itself but by for the attitudes expressed by a minority of its adherents. Some people tend to get so psyched up about it that they they can't stop talking about how great it is and how wrong everyone else is for not being part of it. Such people tend to be prone to the kind of hyperbole that was present in your opening post. It really tends to tick some people off. Consequently, most seasoned DIR proponents prefer to keep a low profile and refrain from coming across as a zealot.