OP
leadweight
Contributor
Bill, have you been taking writing lessons from Seajay or what?
Doing it Left
- Thread starter leadweight
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most classes are taught in this exact way. All the students have the same equipment and they all learn to dive it in the same way.
leadweight,
The DIR folks do believe that the entire system is important. I have no doubt that any diver with greater skill and comfort is better off. As far as the industry though what exactly is different about your system? What distinguishes it from what PADI preaches. I'm not talking about what they actually teach but what they preach. It's all there they even have Project Aware and REEF? to satisfy the environmental concerns.
I can tell you from personal experience that if everything including the card is the same except skill level there isn't anything unique enough to distinguish your system from any other. Even Dive Training magazine has run articles on using medetation and used titles like "The Zen art of Diving" or something like that.
I have even thought of starting my own agency because no matter what we do different there has to be some clear difference that people off the street can see otherwise your still selling a PADI card like everyone else. OTOH you also must achieve the branding somehow. Divers walk in and ASK for a PADI class. They don't even know what PADI is but they ask for it. Quality isn't enough you need a name.
Let's face it GUE with it's DIR has mastered branding just like PADI has. DIR stands out. The differences are clear even from a distance. Everything from equipment, training philosophies heck they even use the dive tables differently. In the recreational arena they really stand out. At the risk of making people mad (I hope not) in cave country they don't stand out near as much. The system may still have merits but the difference is that in cave country spot on trim and buoyancy control is the rule rather than the acception. But, now you flaunt what I call "cave level skills" in front of the average OW diver and they are absolutely flabergasted, floored and impressed big time. They have never seen anything like it. I have never seen a cave instructor that was much less than ammmaaazziiiing in the water. Now, what do you see when you look at most OW instructors HEHEHEHE. The whole movement is an absolute stroke of genius. When I first started reading about DIR it took a while to figure out what the big deal was and then it hit me like a brick. There were all these thousands of divers who hadn't ever seen anyone who could dive before.
What is your new system going to do to have that effect, to sand out and get the attention. If someone asks you what is different about DIL you say...?
The DIR folks do believe that the entire system is important. I have no doubt that any diver with greater skill and comfort is better off. As far as the industry though what exactly is different about your system? What distinguishes it from what PADI preaches. I'm not talking about what they actually teach but what they preach. It's all there they even have Project Aware and REEF? to satisfy the environmental concerns.
I can tell you from personal experience that if everything including the card is the same except skill level there isn't anything unique enough to distinguish your system from any other. Even Dive Training magazine has run articles on using medetation and used titles like "The Zen art of Diving" or something like that.
I have even thought of starting my own agency because no matter what we do different there has to be some clear difference that people off the street can see otherwise your still selling a PADI card like everyone else. OTOH you also must achieve the branding somehow. Divers walk in and ASK for a PADI class. They don't even know what PADI is but they ask for it. Quality isn't enough you need a name.
Let's face it GUE with it's DIR has mastered branding just like PADI has. DIR stands out. The differences are clear even from a distance. Everything from equipment, training philosophies heck they even use the dive tables differently. In the recreational arena they really stand out. At the risk of making people mad (I hope not) in cave country they don't stand out near as much. The system may still have merits but the difference is that in cave country spot on trim and buoyancy control is the rule rather than the acception. But, now you flaunt what I call "cave level skills" in front of the average OW diver and they are absolutely flabergasted, floored and impressed big time. They have never seen anything like it. I have never seen a cave instructor that was much less than ammmaaazziiiing in the water. Now, what do you see when you look at most OW instructors HEHEHEHE. The whole movement is an absolute stroke of genius. When I first started reading about DIR it took a while to figure out what the big deal was and then it hit me like a brick. There were all these thousands of divers who hadn't ever seen anyone who could dive before.
What is your new system going to do to have that effect, to sand out and get the attention. If someone asks you what is different about DIL you say...?
OP
leadweight
Contributor
As I recall when I did my OW everyone got their gear out of the same rental pile. By the time rescue came around everyone had their own gear, but no one had anything tremendously odd.
Actually, this has been debated with respect to wearing a BP&W in an IDC and whether it is bad because the harness does not have slide fasteners or it is good because it exposes divers to different gear configerations.
In making the statement that the alternate inflation octos need to be banished I was looking at achieving a miminal level of standardization in what I consider the most important area, access to air in an emergency. However, in the recreational context I do not believe total standardization right down to requiring cave line to attach bolt snaps rather than zip ties would make any difference.
One could make the standardization argument for just about anything. What if we all drove identical cars. They should cost less and be easier to service as all mechanics would have a lot of practice on that one type of car. Parts would be much easier to get. Safety would be improved by uniform bumper heights and being able to drive the exact same car whether in one's personal car, or one that is rented or borrowed. The free world (except perhaps the military) does not work that way. However there is a minimum level of standardization in that the gas pedal is on the right, the brake next to it and so on.
OP
leadweight
Contributor
Mike,
I am not in a position to do what the DIR folk did because they started from a better platform in the cave diving community. Today it starting to have a commercial slant to it.
I am not claiming to have invented diving and I don't think DIL is really a new system. What I hope it will do is raise some conciousness among recreational divers and get them to start asking for the right things from instructors.
Some of the Eastern stuff can be accessed by divers directly. Your statement that there are a lot of mediocre dive instructors rings true to me. As the system exists right now for most divers there is no alternative to technical instruction. A few lucky divers have a decent mentor. For me, improvement took a lot of diving, and there is a lot of distance left to travel. A few tips from cave divers did not hurt.
During the last 8 months I have been diving a lot. My skills improved, air consumption dropped, and I am starting to look good in the water. I have also noticed that I can move around with very little effort.
I expect to move further on, and am considering some IANTD courses. But, I really wonder how to get the improvement to the masses.
The complaint that diver improvement is nearly unavailable outside of technical training has been voiced by other members around here. If I can even manage to give that problem a catchy name like Doing it Left, I will have done more than I expected.
I am not in a position to do what the DIR folk did because they started from a better platform in the cave diving community. Today it starting to have a commercial slant to it.
I am not claiming to have invented diving and I don't think DIL is really a new system. What I hope it will do is raise some conciousness among recreational divers and get them to start asking for the right things from instructors.
Some of the Eastern stuff can be accessed by divers directly. Your statement that there are a lot of mediocre dive instructors rings true to me. As the system exists right now for most divers there is no alternative to technical instruction. A few lucky divers have a decent mentor. For me, improvement took a lot of diving, and there is a lot of distance left to travel. A few tips from cave divers did not hurt.
During the last 8 months I have been diving a lot. My skills improved, air consumption dropped, and I am starting to look good in the water. I have also noticed that I can move around with very little effort.
I expect to move further on, and am considering some IANTD courses. But, I really wonder how to get the improvement to the masses.
The complaint that diver improvement is nearly unavailable outside of technical training has been voiced by other members around here. If I can even manage to give that problem a catchy name like Doing it Left, I will have done more than I expected.
really loses steam when you realise that equipment failures might account for 1% of all diving injuries, while the other 99% are due to diver error. Unfortunately, 99% of our diving dollars go towards gear improvement, which again is only 1% of the problem. What is wrong with this picture???
It really is a problem of attitude. Most people are way too casual in their approach to diving. They are cavalier about planning and exercising common sense. Things as simple as a site survey... determining your exit points BEFORE you jump in are simply ignored. It gets back down to situational awareness. You can be calm and comfortable without being "casual" about things.
Of course you could overly regiment your diving, which is my biggest beef with DIR. OR... you can increase your global awareness, and never ever do a "trust me" dive with your buddy or other self annointed diving idiot. Get the training you need from an instructor you can relate to. I don't care whether it is DIR, DIL, NAUI, PADI or whatever... just remember that ultimately YOU are responsible for your training and your safety.
It really is a problem of attitude. Most people are way too casual in their approach to diving. They are cavalier about planning and exercising common sense. Things as simple as a site survey... determining your exit points BEFORE you jump in are simply ignored. It gets back down to situational awareness. You can be calm and comfortable without being "casual" about things.
Of course you could overly regiment your diving, which is my biggest beef with DIR. OR... you can increase your global awareness, and never ever do a "trust me" dive with your buddy or other self annointed diving idiot. Get the training you need from an instructor you can relate to. I don't care whether it is DIR, DIL, NAUI, PADI or whatever... just remember that ultimately YOU are responsible for your training and your safety.
OP
leadweight
Contributor
Netdoc, that 99/1 thing was on my mind as I cooked this whole idea up. Divers just are not being injured in any siginficant number from anything other than stupidity, inattention or heart attacks that they might have survived on land. The waivers we all sign do not exclude product liability. If slide fasteners and pull dumps were killing divers the personal injury lawyers would have discovered it and we would be reading it in Rodales.
I have heard about a lot of out of air emergencies that were the result of simply forgetting to change out a tank and not looking at the guage before jumping in. Isn't there a statistic that 80% of all fatally injured divers are found with air in their tanks, regulators working and their weights attached.
Standardized gear (to a certain extent) may be helpful in cave diving or certain wreck penetrations. For the rest of us it just does not make a difference. The whole gear thing is overworked. Its the diver that needs some development.
I have heard about a lot of out of air emergencies that were the result of simply forgetting to change out a tank and not looking at the guage before jumping in. Isn't there a statistic that 80% of all fatally injured divers are found with air in their tanks, regulators working and their weights attached.
Standardized gear (to a certain extent) may be helpful in cave diving or certain wreck penetrations. For the rest of us it just does not make a difference. The whole gear thing is overworked. Its the diver that needs some development.
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Here we have a thread that started out as a troll from one of our primary DIR opponents which now shows signs, in some people's minds apparently, of actually being something other than a troll.
Is this like an underwater "Revenge of the Nerds"?
What many of us have been saying all along is that diver training levels, and, consequently, diver skill level, are at an all-time low. Is this "system" saying anything different?
btw- "DIL" is pretty much the stupidist name you could have come up with, more proof that the thread, and its author, is a troll.
Learn to dive properly, or don't, your call.
WW
Is this like an underwater "Revenge of the Nerds"?
What many of us have been saying all along is that diver training levels, and, consequently, diver skill level, are at an all-time low. Is this "system" saying anything different?
btw- "DIL" is pretty much the stupidist name you could have come up with, more proof that the thread, and its author, is a troll.
Learn to dive properly, or don't, your call.
WW
OP
leadweight
Contributor
Had a bad cup of coffee WW? Relax, its the weekend, have a beer. I may be an iconoclast and one that challenges the established order of things, but I am no troll. You should know better by now. Is wanting to do something about diver training and skill levels a troll?
JeffAustin
Guest
So, are you saying that a whole class will be using the HUB??
Or will have Air 2's instead of octos?
Or will be using integrated weights instead of a weight belt?
In your scenario, I'm guessing all your students are in the same rental gear, but what about the person that already has their own gear??
what about a class where half the students have Air2's, the other half with octo rigs, do you make them standardize, or do you teach how to do air sharing with both systems??
You are right, stupidity and mistakes are what injure divers, but do you think confusion or equipment unfamiliarity play a part in any of these accidents??
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