Does anyone dive with tables anymore?

[Thalassamania]

Good points, but.....


Well, I'll bring another twist back up here. Back 20+ years ago, my instruction taught us the "no faster than your smallest bubbles". Did that for about 15 years in conjunction with my watch & depth gauge. Decided I wanted a computer. Used it mostly for the benefit of stepped profiles, and the additional bottom time, not really focusing on the ascent monitor. When I dumped my data, one of the summaries is ascent rate.... so, what do you think it displayed? Average: 34 fpm! That was half of what we were taught, and in fact almost on make for the current teachings of 30 in 0-30.... all that by those little bubbles....

see, it works!

Many years ago I was taught, on ascent, to look at my watch and depth gauge ... 5 feet on the depth gauge, then 5 seconds on the watch, then 5 feet on the depth gauge, etc. When I got my first shot at computers (prototype EDGE, Sunnto-USN, USD/Oceanic hockey sticks) it did not surprise me that my ascent rate was, almost exactly 60 fpm. Slowing down peoples ascents (studies showed that most divers back in the day were ascending on the order of 100 to 120 fpm) has been one of the great contributions of computers.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Dive tables vs. dive computer ...

a) typical Saturday morning beach dive here in SoCal: time the waves, swim out 20 minutes, drop down on Deadman Reef, check out the reef to a max depth of 60ft (if you are deeper you missed the reef ), check the moray eels, ... first diver that hits 1500 PSI calls the dive, turn-around and return to shore underwater, ascend when you get into 5ft (but first play for few minutes the "who is better at hovering 10 inches from the bottom" game). No need for a dive computer (but I have one ... and some time more), no need for dive tables (I have them in the car) ... don't even need a compass (I have a 3D map of the area ) - but I bring one anyway.

b) dive trip to Cozumel; multiple dives per day over a week period ... difficult to use the tables because you don't always know in advance what the dive profile will be (and if you know it the DM might change it on the fly), and, if you use them you might end up having to skip a dive here and there because your tables might give you a ridiculously small bottom time :depressed:
BTW, it is not a bad idea to skip a dive here and there ... just grab a scooter and tour the island with your wife

Alberto (aka eDiver)

I have to strongly take issue with the last part. Why would you not know what your dive profile would be. You get a site briefing, max depth, max time and plan your dive. And why would anyone allow a DM that does not know you to alter the plan you are diving on the fly? For that matter allowing a DM to plan YOUR dive is irresponsible.

 

[BoltSnap]

I started using Dive Computers on December 26th 1987 and never looked back. I know how to use dive tables very well and teach them still but accuracy, memory, dive history, logbook function, automatic activation, fallible human memory, cost per minute for dive time, etc. are factors that make owning and using a decent dive computer indispensable. All must understand decompression theory including dive tables, but they are going away the way slide rules went away. To believe otherwise for the recreational diver, is to be living in a state of denial.

As to reliability, if you have your doubts, own two. They are inexpensive enough.

 

[Paladin]

I started using Dive Computers on December 26th 1987 and never looked back. I know how to use dive tables very well and teach them still but accuracy, memory, dive history, logbook function, automatic activation, fallible human memory, cost per minute for dive time, etc. are factors that make owning and using a decent dive computer indispensable. All must understand decompression theory including dive tables, but they are going away the way slide rules went away. To believe otherwise for the recreational diver, is to be living in a state of denial.

As to reliability, if you have your doubts, own two. They are inexpensive enough.

I, on the other hand, bought a computer last year, dived it several times then went back to tables. I still have the computer but it is set to gauge mode as a backup to my depth gauge and watch. I don't like dive computers and don't fully trust them. I have more trust in the computer that sits between my ears.

As for computers being inexpensive, you may think of $200+ each as being inexpensive but many of us out here in the real world don't see them as being inexpensive. To so flippantly declare that we should be happy to spend $400+ for two computers just doesn't make sense. The bottom line for us is that a good depth gauge can be bought for around $50 (+ or -) and a Casio watch that is good to 200 meters will cost about the same or less. A copy of the dive tables costs around 5 bucks. For the cost conscious diver, the tables simply make more sense.

 

[Thalassamania]

Price is relative and a matter of perspective. Before today's digital watches the least expensive dive watch that you could count on was a Zodiac Sea Wolf what went for about $200 in 1970 (that's about $1,200 in today's money). That was just for a watch. My instruments back then, a ScubaPro helium depth gauge, an ikelight compass and a Doxa watch set me back enough in today's money, to buy a Datamask and an Oceanic OC1 Air/Nitrox Hoseless Titanium "Pioneer Limited Edition" Computer Dive Watch as a backup, with money left over. $400 plus a compass ... please don't throw me in that briar patch.

 

[BoltSnap]

I, on the other hand, bought a computer last year, dived it several times then went back to tables. I still have the computer but it is set to gauge mode as a backup to my depth gauge and watch. I don't like dive computers and don't fully trust them.

Looking at your profile and the equipment you own and use, this would fit the pattern and that is your choice. I am curious, however, about what you didn't like about the computer.

I don't like dive computers and don't fully trust them. I have more trust in the computer that sits between my ears.

Computers, of any type, only help us process information and present them to us in a more convenient way for us to use our heads and make the required decisions. I think that it is way too late to say computers don't have their place in our lives including diving.

I understand that it might be a "macho" thing to dive vintage equipment and fight using computers, etc. but this is getting really old.

As for computers being inexpensive, you may think of $200+ each as being inexpensive but many of us out here in the real world don't see them as being inexpensive. To so flippantly declare that we should be happy to spend $400+ for two computers just doesn't make sense. The bottom line for us is that a good depth gauge can be bought for around $50 (+ or -) and a Casio watch that is good to 200 meters will cost about the same or less. A copy of the dive tables costs around 5 bucks. For the cost conscious diver, the tables simply make more sense.

Aren't you exaggerating too much? I never "flippantly declare that we should be happy to spend $400+...." There is cost and benefit as well as value. Reading the list of equipment you own, I don't understand your complaining about spending $400 or even more. People spend a lot of money on one meal they are going to pass through their bowels later without a second thought. Check what people are spending on upgrading their telephones, PDA's, etc. every year. I am not rich by any means but diving is my "main squeeze" type of hobby and I consider the overall value and ToC to easily be able to determine the value of spending $400+ to enjoy diving more with higher safety factor. No one is going to remember the price they paid for their dive computer a year or more later but they will always love the convenience and value it gives them.

BTW, please don't get me wrong, I respect your choices and even admire your expertise with vintage equipment and your ability to keep them going and going.

 

[BoltSnap]

BTW, I had to sell my TV, bicycle and many other things to buy my first set of dive equipment. I had to work extra hours to buy my first dive computer in '87.

 

[Rainer]

Ditto (though 4+ years only).

I haven't used a computer in 5+ years. Call me retro, I multilevel (including deco dives) without one.

 

[Paladin]

"Looking at your profile and the equipment you own and use, this would fit the pattern and that is your choice. I am curious, however, about what you didn't like about the computer."

I prefer to do my own thinking rather than letting a machine do it for me. Just because a computer displays data on a screen does not necessarily mean that data is accurate. Computers perform millions of computations per second and all it takes is a single, fleeting glitch or a bad logic gate to give erroneous data. I simply do not trust them, so why use them? Of course, this is a personal choice and I do not pretend to make that choice for other divers. I do not look down my nose at users of dive computers and expect that same courtesy in return.

"Computers, of any type, only help us process information and present them to us in a more convenient way for us to use our heads and make the required decisions. I think that it is way too late to say computers don't have their place in our lives including diving."

Yes, a computer is a convenience. But not a necessity. To claim that everyone needs one is both erroneous and, in a way, elitist. I have never said that computers have no place in diving. My claim is that they are not for everyone and are not the solution for all situations.

"I understand that it might be a "macho" thing to dive vintage equipment and fight using computers, etc. but this is getting really old."

It is by no means a "macho thing" and it most certainly isn't a case of "fighting" computers. After all, I did buy one, you know. I just decided that I don't need it or even like it. It's all about personal preferences and whether one prefers to rely on one's own skills and knowledge or to rely on a machine. It's also about divers who have budget restraints that prohibit spending money on one computer, much less adding a backup. I know several divers who would not be diving if they had been required to buy computers. They did well just to scrape together a minimal kit of gear. They will never dive at exotic locales but are happy diving in local rivers, lakes and quarries. For them, the tables are reliable and economical. Sometimes, it is forgotten that not all those who have been bitten by the SCUBA bug have money to burn. I can almost hear comments like "Well, if they don't have the money, they shouldn't be diving." This is a bit elitist, don't you think?

As for my own collection of gear, everything I have has been acquired over time and much of it is because my sons got into diving. If it were not for them, I would not have anywhere near the amount of stuff I have. Further, everything I have (other than fins, masks and snorkels) was purchased used at considerable savings, except for the computer. My wetsuit is a TommyDSports that I got for 50 bucks. I actually have less than $1500 for the whole shooting match.

This thread's OP stated that money is a concern in his current situation and that purchasing a computer is not in the cards at this time. He will, therefore, need to use tables for diving. His question wasn't if he should buy a computer (and a backup) but rather if there are divers who still use the tables. The answer to this question is an unequivocal "YES!" So, if budgetary limits or personal preferences are deciding factors, then the tables are still perfectly viable and still do the job they were designed to do.

 

[DiveNav]

I have to strongly take issue with the last part. Why would you not know what your dive profile would be. You get a site briefing, max depth, max time and plan your dive. And why would anyone allow a DM that does not know you to alter the plan you are diving on the fly? For that matter allowing a DM to plan YOUR dive is irresponsible.

I am not saying that I want to allow the DM to do that, but, in reality when diving Cozumel most likely you are on a boat with a group of other divers of very diverse experience level AND the DM tells you what the max depth could be, but you might end up much shallower than that if your buddy (if you get one) tends to breathe too quickly :depressed: Also, most likely a dive there is NOT a square profile and if you have to ascend - because your tables told you so - 10 minutes before the others, the boat captain - that has to follow the bubble of his group of divers (drift diving over there) - will stare at you and make you understand that he is a bit annoyed :depressed:

My point was that in a situation like that it is darn difficult to run a week long dive vacation based on tables only. I could certainly do that, but I prefer the convenience of dive computers (and please don't get started on the "people that dive the computer don't know the theory behind them .... I think I know a bit of it )

So, back to the OP .... use the right tool for the situation.

Alberto (aka eDiver)