Group?? What "group"??? Do they have meetings? Are they organized? Is this a conspiracy thing???
Dude... I don't know where you're coming from but I find that whole last paragraph a bit scarry... on a number of levels.
Does a dive flag protect you? Think again.
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Group?? What "group"??? Do they have meetings? Are they organized? Is this a conspiracy thing???
Dude... I don't know where you're coming from but I find that whole last paragraph a bit scarry... on a number of levels.
don Francisco
Contributor
"One man's death is a tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic"
It might pay to think of Joe Stalin when discussing the dive flag issue. Efforts to modify the actions of boaters through education or regulation may reduce the statistical death rate and prevent a theoretical death, but that's meaningless if you or a friend are the one death.
While I agree that raising boater awareness will help somewhat, I'm not willing to rely on the improved statistics to protect myself. No amount of change among boaters will bring the risk down to an acceptable level. There will always be drunk, ignorant and distracted boaters. So given that it won't work for us, I'm also not willing to risk the unexpected consequences of getting government more involved.
Someone on this thread refered to dive flag laws as a cruel joke on divers, and he's absolutely right, but the joke is one we play on ourselves when we put up a flag and think it'll protect us.
Putting up a dive flag is like wearing a bright orange reflective vest to play hopscotch in the middle lanes of the New Jersey Turnpike. It'll help, but not enough to make it safe. Let's be real and accept the fact that the only way we can be safe is to take care of ourselves and not rely on others to do so.
It might pay to think of Joe Stalin when discussing the dive flag issue. Efforts to modify the actions of boaters through education or regulation may reduce the statistical death rate and prevent a theoretical death, but that's meaningless if you or a friend are the one death.
While I agree that raising boater awareness will help somewhat, I'm not willing to rely on the improved statistics to protect myself. No amount of change among boaters will bring the risk down to an acceptable level. There will always be drunk, ignorant and distracted boaters. So given that it won't work for us, I'm also not willing to risk the unexpected consequences of getting government more involved.
Someone on this thread refered to dive flag laws as a cruel joke on divers, and he's absolutely right, but the joke is one we play on ourselves when we put up a flag and think it'll protect us.
Putting up a dive flag is like wearing a bright orange reflective vest to play hopscotch in the middle lanes of the New Jersey Turnpike. It'll help, but not enough to make it safe. Let's be real and accept the fact that the only way we can be safe is to take care of ourselves and not rely on others to do so.
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OP
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So you have never discussed things like demographics, where people are grouped into age ranges (12-17; 18-34; 25-54; etc) or Psychographics, where various behaviors are grouped ( drinkers;smokers;well educated;high income;low income;cyclists;fast food consumers;boaters;etc) , even lifestyles are broken up into things in common ( Furs and station wagons; cowboy boots and beers; BMW's and Starbucks cards
Back to what I wrote.....all boaters are not a problem for divers. There are a few "subsets" of boaters that "are a problem" for divers, and because they have things in common, it is useful to "group" them. Frat boys out with their friends.....boatful of beer drinking fisherman .....an argueing family on an afternoon cruise over the reef....yuppies partying on a Yacht -- yacht is running at speed....there are pleny of groups--some large, some not.....but there is the larger group of boaters who do not see or look for dive flags, and this group will be made up of all the smaller groups I just mentioned, and several more
Now I hope you are somewhat less scared or troubled..
Regards,
Dan
AbyssalPlains
Contributor
:huh: I never said it was confusing or convoluted...maybe you should re-read my post.I said he must be smoking something if he thinks boaters TRY to hit divers on purpose.
No, wrong again. He didn't say education was good (way to try to give Dan more credit than he deserves) he said:
So this is the only accurate thing you've said...but you're directing it at the wrong person. WE are trying to do something here. WE are trying to raise dive flag awareness. WE have made a facebook cause that now has over 350 people. WE have posted myspace bulletins. WE have put a link to dive flag awareness petition in our sig lines. WE are going to be handing out flyers at boat ramps this weekend. WE ARE DOING SOMETHING to pursue the common cause. Dan comes in and says people like us make him want to puke...yet he offers to guidance as to what else can be done. He also says he won't be doing anything himself...that his role is get others involved?!? So he doesn't want to get involved and he criticizes those that are involved because what we're doing doesn't rise to his expectations?!? And you think we are bashing him?????
DivingPrincess: Why didn't you say all that in the first place? How am I supposed to know about all the great things you are doing when you don't mention it? Heck, I'm going to join your facebook group right now!
Missdirected
Contributor
Be sure to sign the petition and not just join the group - the petition is the important bit.
Dtaine
Contributor
So you have never discussed things like demographics, where people are grouped into age ranges (12-17; 18-34; 25-54; etc) or Psychographics, where various behaviors are grouped ( drinkers;smokers;well educated;high income;low income;cyclists;fast food consumers;boaters;etc) , even lifestyles are broken up into things in common ( Furs and station wagons; cowboy boots and beers; BMW's and Starbucks cards
Back to what I wrote.....all boaters are not a problem for divers. There are a few "subsets" of boaters that "are a problem" for divers, and because they have things in common, it is useful to "group" them. Frat boys out with their friends.....boatful of beer drinking fisherman .....an argueing family on an afternoon cruise over the reef....yuppies partying on a Yacht -- yacht is running at speed....there are pleny of groups--some large, some not.....but there is the larger group of boaters who do not see or look for dive flags, and this group will be made up of all the smaller groups I just mentioned, and several more
Now I hope you are somewhat less scared or troubled..
Regards,
Dan
I love it when people categorize others and then label them as a "problem". Inattentive boaters are a problem, I couldn't give a **** what demographic the driver is. Inattentive divers are also a problem, although the "problem" is a little bit different as they're only likely to kill themselves.
It's obvious that awareness of the rules and laws is a problem, so groups seeking to increase this awareness should be applauded. I've been nearly hit by a boat twice, once while swimming off South Beach (a boater decided to dip well within the beach markers), and another time down in Roatan (another boat decided to drop divers in the water on top of us while we ascended, they were running the prop and dropping divers while circling our boat, different country though).
Is licensing the answer? I don't know, the car drivers down here are bad enough I think a monkey could get a license and be safer on the road.
That said, I do think there should be stiff laws and fines when proper flags are displayed and someone ignores them. We need both increased awareness, and stiffer enforcement of laws on the books.
DivingPrincessE
Contributor
I didn't mention it in this thread, because this thread is just one big slam against everything we're doing. It's being talked about a lot is the POSITIVE threads about the subject. Tracy already linked to this thread several posts ago, but here it is again:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/fl...9-dive-flag-awareness-event-fl-statewide.html
Plus the info to the petition is in my sig in big red letters.
FunkyDiver
Contributor
I just came across this thread and rather than read all 117 replies, I'm just going to post my opinion.
I agree with the OP that if law enforcement put a BIG fine on violating dive flag limits, word would get out quickly and violations would cease almost instantly. As an example, when you go diving or snorkeling with the manatees, all the guides constantly preach not to harass them because the fine is up to $10k if you get caught. Nobody wants to get fined that much so they don't do it.
You could literally stop traffic violations by attaching BIG fines, not just piddly little $100 fines. Make it a real big fine, let the public know that the fines were increased substantially, and speeding, red light violations, stop sign running etc would cease quickly if people thought they were going to have to pay 500 or 1000.
The same goes with dive flag violations. Make the fine BIG, run a media blitz, and it would stop. The problem would be enforcement. I'm not sure how you would enforce it. Maybe sending pictures of the offender running within the dive flag limits would be enough.
I agree with the OP that if law enforcement put a BIG fine on violating dive flag limits, word would get out quickly and violations would cease almost instantly. As an example, when you go diving or snorkeling with the manatees, all the guides constantly preach not to harass them because the fine is up to $10k if you get caught. Nobody wants to get fined that much so they don't do it.
You could literally stop traffic violations by attaching BIG fines, not just piddly little $100 fines. Make it a real big fine, let the public know that the fines were increased substantially, and speeding, red light violations, stop sign running etc would cease quickly if people thought they were going to have to pay 500 or 1000.
The same goes with dive flag violations. Make the fine BIG, run a media blitz, and it would stop. The problem would be enforcement. I'm not sure how you would enforce it. Maybe sending pictures of the offender running within the dive flag limits would be enough.
Better yet... what if WE were empowered to simply shoot em'??? Bet THAT would put an even faster stop to it...
Personally I think all this 'fine' system is just a way for people to get money out of other people... ya' REALLY wanna' solve the problem... impose a penalty that means something... life in prison with bubba... confiscate their boats... impound their houses... I think we should hire permanent WATER COPS... we could put them under Homeland Security (which I'm sure EVERYBODY here strongly supports)... and when they're not busy dealing with those low-lifes that cruise the waterways looking for dive flags to run over they can maybe go after a drug runner or two... or maybe a litterer... Hey... I think we're on to something... if we take this to the next level we could not only license all boaters... but all divers! Heck... there have been "concerned" threads on SB about the once-a-year divers who by their lack of skill are endangering reefs... and themselves... we could LICENSE them... good heavy fees to make sure they CARE enough to keep their training level up and not trash the environment for the rest of us.... and it would have the benefit of keeping dive shops in business as they'd all have to go and get recertified each year... or at least have a skills evaluation (which, of course, we could ramp up each year because skills are SO minimal now...).... Dang... YA'LL ARE RIGHT... FINES AND FEES... and MORE TRAINING... and... while we're at it... because of the equity of the law... we should have MASSIVE FINES for any diver who dives WITHOUT a dive flag... the possibilities are endless... MAYBE we could just empower Divemasters to pull the cert card of anybody they see diving in an UNSAFE manner... (purely in the interest of saving lives and protecting the environment... of course)...
... as I noted before... be careful what you ask for...
Fines don't solve problems... giving a damn about the other guy does... you can take an adversarial approach to boaters (ie., punative power)... or you can be proactive and friendly... "raising awareness" I think was the catch phrase of the 70's...
I'd opt for the proactive and friendly approach...
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