Does a dive flag protect you? Think again.

[AbyssalPlains]

Ok, I have to jump in here. I feel in no way that the OP's post is confusing, but I couldn't help feel that some responses, e.g. DivingPrincess and ScubaSteve's, accused the OP of posting a convoluted post, when in fact I got the impression it was them who didn't get the point. All the OP said that while education is good, tough laws are needed to protect divers. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, and if that's the case, I apologize. I'm just trying to untangle this a bit because I feel we shouldn't bash each other for pursuing a common cause.

The big problem with boater education is that if people don't care and/or drive boats impaired, you can educate all you want. Everybody understands what a dive flag is and that propellers are not good for divers, but still people drive their boats over them. If you are an intoxicated boat driver and have a yelling bunch of fellow frat boys on your speed boat, you don't care about safety. The only thing you care about is impressing your friends. It's about immaturity, not so much education, IMHO. It's like drunk driving. All drivers know it's bad and they still do it. Cracking down on them, taking licenses for life, things like that, is what works in those cases. Remember how it was when you were a kid and the bully was kicked out of the sandbox? If someone isn't willing to play nicely, kick 'em out. For good. You drive a boat recklessly and hurt a diver as a result? Well, guess what, no more boating for you. Ever. That's how it should be. And that's how it should be with DUI, too.

 

[DivingPrincessE]

Ok, I have to jump in here. I feel in no way that the OP's post is confusing, but I couldn't help feel that some responses, e.g. DivingPrincess and ScubaSteve's, accused the OP of posting a convoluted post

:huh: I never said it was confusing or convoluted...maybe you should re-read my post. I said he must be smoking something if he thinks boaters TRY to hit divers on purpose.

when in fact I got the impression it was them who didn't get the point. All the OP said that while education is good

No, wrong again. He didn't say education was good (way to try to give Dan more credit than he deserves) he said:

Everytime I hear some diver say we need more boater education, it makes me want to puke. It is the typical reaction of a person who does not really want to do much--and if they do this tiny thing, then they can feel good about themselves.

I'm just trying to untangle this a bit because I feel we shouldn't bash each other for pursuing a common cause.

So this is the only accurate thing you've said...but you're directing it at the wrong person. WE are trying to do something here. WE are trying to raise dive flag awareness. WE have made a facebook cause that now has over 350 people. WE have posted myspace bulletins. WE have put a link to dive flag awareness petition in our sig lines. WE are going to be handing out flyers at boat ramps this weekend. WE ARE DOING SOMETHING to pursue the common cause. Dan comes in and says people like us make him want to puke...yet he offers to guidance as to what else can be done. He also says he won't be doing anything himself...that his role is get others involved?!? So he doesn't want to get involved and he criticizes those that are involved because what we're doing doesn't rise to his expectations?!? And you think we are bashing him?????

hbrother:

 

[Gary D.]

Did some interesting research...

According to the FARS Encyclopedia, there were 38,642 fatal crashes in 2006.. that is for 245,628,000 registered vehicles... this gives us an incident rate of 1 death for every 6356.50329 vehicles

According to the 2006, the USCG Boating Statistics Report states there were 710 boating related deaths with 12,746,126 registered boats... for a rate of 5.6 deaths per boat... or one death for every 17952.2901 boats.

Now... I'd note that EVEN with the laws... enforcements... fines... etc., etc., etc... the number of deaths per boat (with it's lack of licensing and minimal enforcement) is still lower than the number of deaths per car...

Let's take a look at one other statistic... the boating death rate in 1991 was 8.3 per 100,000... the highest in the last 16 years... the death rate showed a marked decrease around 1996 and has held between 5.8 and 5.3 per 100,000 for the last 8 years... now let's map this phenomenon against gas prices... hummm...

I think it would suggest that the BEST way to reduce incidents on the water is to jack up the price of gas to an unaffordable level... people will still own boats but they won't be able to afford to run them... result...lower mortality and incident statistics and... THINK OF ALL THE MONEY THAT WOULD BRING IN FOR THE GOVERNMENT (One could postulate that with increased "in dock" time the alcohol consumption rate would climb raising revenues even further AND as the police would hopefully catch on... they could set up sobriety check points at the entrance to marinas thereby improving local balance sheets as well...)

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/Boating_Statistics_2006.pdf
FARS Encyclopedia

Some of those deaths are not a DIRECT result of the accident itself but from actions after the accident. People just don't realize that with a Traffic Accident on the land everything comes to a hault. Medical and investigators do what they have to do to clean up the mess. But on the water the accident is just the start of bad things happening. Nothing stops like on the roadway and things continue to move in a wide range of directions.

Gary D.

 

[J.R.]

Some of those deaths are not a DIRECT result of the accident itself but from actions after the accident. People just don't realize that with a Traffic Accident on the land everything comes to a hault. Medical and investigators do what they have to do to clean up the mess. But on the water the accident is just the start of bad things happening. Nothing stops like on the roadway and things continue to move in a wide range of directions.

Gary D.

Obviously correct... but not exactly the point of the post.

 

[ScubaSteve]

BUT ANY BUTT REAMING A..HOLE CAN DRIVE A BOAT

The issue of enforcement aside, this is not the case here in Ontario (and I assume Canada). You do in fact need a liscence to drive a boat of a certain size and/or horsepower.

 

[CamG]

Greetings fellow SB'ers!
This is a serious issue that needs some serious attention as indicated.
If you have never experienced "boat buzzing" aka. breaking the law it can be very unnerving to say the least! I have spoken with my local DNR and they are willing to participate. We divers seem to draw attention with our flags in-land also. Some areas Jet Ski's, in particular "Minors on Jet Ski's" are not aware or do not care about safety.
I have known several individuals who were struck by boats / water craft and survived.
They carry the reminders to this day to ensure their tragedies are not repeated enforcement of current laws must be made a reality!
Tougher penalties are impossible till existing laws are enforced! We as a diving community need to do our part in partnering with local Law enforcement to see that this happens. I am not being rude but most DNR / Law enforcement personal do not have problems issuing citations for offenses.
Accidents happen but the reality is we assume responsibility when operating a motorized watercraft. Just like others have mentioned it is the same as motorized vehicles!
I would like to offer my concern and sympathy for those have been a victim to these tragedies. As with any tragedy families bear the brunt of it, please know others share your pain and we all are affected. My prayers are with you.
CamG Keep diving....keep training....keep learning!

 

[ScubaSteve]

.....even a retarded person could pass a drivers exam, and be abe to legally drive a car........

Was that you in front of me this morning? :joke:

.....ScubaSteve's, accused the OP of posting a convoluted post........

And I stand by that. Thanks for noticing.

 

[SteveAD]

Did some interesting research...

According to the FARS Encyclopedia, there were 38,642 fatal crashes in 2006.. that is for 245,628,000 registered vehicles... this gives us an incident rate of 1 death for every 6356.50329 vehicles

According to the 2006, the USCG Boating Statistics Report states there were 710 boating related deaths with 12,746,126 registered boats... for a rate of 5.6 deaths per boat... or one death for every 17952.2901 boats.

Now... I'd note that EVEN with the laws... enforcements... fines... etc., etc., etc... the number of deaths per boat (with it's lack of licensing and minimal enforcement) is still lower than the number of deaths per car...

Let's take a look at one other statistic... the boating death rate in 1991 was 8.3 per 100,000... the highest in the last 16 years... the death rate showed a marked decrease around 1996 and has held between 5.8 and 5.3 per 100,000 for the last 8 years... now let's map this phenomenon against gas prices... hummm...

I think it would suggest that the BEST way to reduce incidents on the water is to jack up the price of gas to an unaffordable level... people will still own boats but they won't be able to afford to run them... result...lower mortality and incident statistics and... THINK OF ALL THE MONEY THAT WOULD BRING IN FOR THE GOVERNMENT (One could postulate that with increased "in dock" time the alcohol consumption rate would climb raising revenues even further AND as the police would hopefully catch on... they could set up sobriety check points at the entrance to marinas thereby improving local balance sheets as well...)

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/Boating_Statistics_2006.pdf
FARS Encyclopedia

You missed one very important point here. These stats are for fatalities/vehicle. They completely miss operating time. If we take into usage into account, the average car is driven daily, year round, while the average boat is driven on occasional weekends for maybe half the year. I those statistics reflected running car hours vs. running boat hours I'm pretty sure boats would look substantially more dangerous than cars.

 

[J.R.]

You missed one very important point here. These stats are for fatalities/vehicle. They completely miss operating time. If we take into usage into account, the average car is driven daily, year round, while the average boat is driven on occasional weekends for maybe half the year. I those statistics reflected running car hours vs. running boat hours I'm pretty sure boats would look substantially more dangerous than cars.

Hummm... good point... wonder if there are any statistics for cars hitting people crossing the street v. boats hitting divers?

But I'd also point out that cars, even given the differences in operating time, have the benefit of lanes, signs, massive law enforcement and educational efforts, highway maintenance support, flow monitoring and control factors for pedestrians entering a traffic environment... I would postulate that these SHOULD more than offset the hours of oeration consideration...

... the big question is... how great is the problem REALLY???

I think the thing that is missing in this discussion of how to lay down the smack on boaters it the most obvious issue of "what can we do to help ourselves"... is a 2 foot dive flag sufficient? Should we consider a more visible alternative? Should we require divers in a boat traffic area to have surface support to ward off boaters with loud noisy thingies???

... what I'm objecting to is not 'issues of safety'... but rather the OP's rather pointed "inciting to riot" approach to the problem where by there is an apparent assumption of both innocence and lack of responsibility on the part of divers in comparison to boaters...

I'm all about education... but let's educate BOTH sides...

Are there boaters who need to be taken out behind the shed for a good whoopin'... yea... I have no doubt there are... but I object to the rather broad brushed painting of boaters in general as a bunch of homicidal drunken lunatics who live every moment for the opportunity to run down a scuba diver...

... and one has to ask themselves... if enfocement activities aren't having that great of an impact on drunk drivers... why should we expect that it would have any more impact on the minority of boaters who are bent on being idiots anyway?

As I noted in an earlier post... the problem with having a willingness to support stringent enforcement of others to protect our own percieved "rights" is that it needs to be accompanied by an equal willingness to subject ourselves to stringent enforcement of rules put in play by others that feel it necessary to protect their "rights"...

 

[danvolker]

:huh: I never said it was confusing or convoluted...maybe you should re-read my post. I said he must be smoking something if he thinks boaters TRY to hit divers on purpose.

You must have been smoking something, if your interpretive skills had you believing that I thought boaters were purposely trying to hit divers....What I was "clearly" saying, was that most boaters are just NOT thinking about divers, or dive flags, and not caring to scan around or drive slowly where divers might be--they are not even remotely considering "where" divers might be--they don't care to think about this. And I also said quite clearly, that the vast majority of the offending boaters DO in fact, know what a dive flag means.....they just don't care to look for them when out running their boats on the reefs.

[/quote]

No, wrong again. He didn't say education was good (way to try to give Dan more credit than he deserves) he said:

In a later post, I did say that once you have teeth in the law, which could create fear of prosecution, then EDUCATION would be very valuable.....much like MADD educating drunk drivers that if you drive drunk, and you are caught, you will have severe penalties...They created FEAR OF PUNISHMENT in the minds of the big drinkers who were likely to plan on driving drunk. They did this through education, but would have had zero effectiveness if the laws had not been modified to be severely punitive.
[/quote]

So this is the only accurate thing you've said...but you're directing it at the wrong person. WE are trying to do something here. WE are trying to raise dive flag awareness. WE have made a facebook cause that now has over 350 people. WE have posted myspace bulletins. WE have put a link to dive flag awareness petition in our sig lines. WE are going to be handing out flyers at boat ramps this weekend. WE ARE DOING SOMETHING to pursue the common cause. Dan comes in and says people like us make him want to puke...yet he offers to guidance as to what else can be done. He also says he won't be doing anything himself...that his role is get others involved?!? So he doesn't want to get involved and he criticizes those that are involved because what we're doing doesn't rise to his expectations?!? And you think we are bashing him?????

hbrother:

Diving Princess.... I see you as a close potential paralell to the Mothers Against Drunk Driving group (MADD). But for you to be as effective as MADD was/is , you need the legislative teeth that MADD helped to create..ie., you need to work like they did, so that your education movement will "scare" offenders into changing their behaviors. I see you as being able to DO something far more powerfully than what I believe I could do....and I think it is crucially important that you have this punitive tool at your disposal, to work with.

I think you are probably a "nice" person, who wants to think that most boaters are "nice". ...Well, most boaters may be nice, but the group of offending boaters is NOT nice...many in this group are severely self indulgent, and many believe that "we" are intruding on their water--and they do not like us in their playground...and I expect many of them would have nothing but scorn for you or for me, if we were to wave a flag awareness sign in front of them. And the others, the ones who are not specifically "not nice", are most likely more along the lines of people with an Attention Deficit Disorder, and captaining a boat is NOT something they should be doing ( hours of focusing does not play to their strength).
Regards,
Dan Volker