Doc Deep dies during dive.

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So the Navy divers who experienced panic in a 15' foot pool...they didn't have enough 15' pool dives to build up the ability to "handle the dump of hormones"?
How often do they find themselves in a life and death struggle in a pool? Maybe SEAL pool comp counts, but thats an exception. The levels of stress between ‘I’ll look bad in front of my instructor’ and ‘Oh crap, I’m going to die’ is pretty big. You can spend a lot of time practicing stuff, but when you have to do if for real and your hands can’t stop shaking for 30 minutes afterward it’s a very different experience.

Nobody puts a trainee in a silted out cave off tthe line and says, here’s 1200 PSI, you have to find the line, successfully navigate 1000 feet with three navigational decisions along the way or you’ll drown. You ready?
 
Training can't teach you how to deal with hypercapnia

Sure it can, but it is a long and expensive process. Advanced freediver training and special forces drownproofing training manages hypercapnia and panic to the point that the diver will pass out from anoxia while still focused on saving themselves.
 
drownproofing training
The first time I did this it took all my will power to stay calm and not panic, I thought I was one breath away from a near drowning.
No matter how fit you are it is a mind thing.
Had to do it again years later, and again, I felt the same even knowing what to expect.
😵‍💫
 
The first time I did this it took all my will power to stay calm and not panic, I thought I was one breath away from a near drowning.
No matter how fit you are it is a mind thing.
Had to do it again years later, and again, I felt the same even knowing what to expect.
😵‍💫

What's the experience like, mentally?

I ask because I have panic issues on dry land due to PTSD, and as I've learned to manage it better over time, my experience has been that I can almost detach myself from how I'm feeling physiologically and while I can't *stop* the physiological response, I can then choose to 'believe' in the response or not. (Like "yep, gonna die, time to freak out!" vs "you FEEL like crap but you're not actually dying, now do this thing instead.") Obviously this is not perfect and I wouldn't want to be doing any complicated mental tasks, but it does allow for doing safety tasks like finding a safe place to wait out the physiological response, doing things to improve the physiological response (meds, etc.) and that sort of thing. I'm just wondering if other people experience the same sort of division when trained to deal with panic in other scenarios.

(I have never gone through this underwater and in fact my PTSD/panic issues are one reason I'm hesitant to learn to dive. Being on this forum is partly exposure therapy, gets me thinking about stuff and what can go wrong and how you deal with it, etc.)
 
Sure it can, but it is a long and expensive process. Advanced freediver training and special forces drownproofing training manages hypercapnia and panic to the point that the diver will pass out from anoxia while still focused on saving themselves.
Yes, but it works from my few freediving lessons a little bit different. The breathing impulse comes from the PCO2 that increases in your body. You can learn really easy to ignore that. Then you don't feel anymore if there is coming a shortness of oxygen. I never felt panic when holding 3 minutes breath. If you ignore that PCO2 sensor that tells you you have to breath, there is a complete rest coming.
 
I'm a research psychologist, with a focus on emotion and cognition. Panic, like all emotions, results from what we call bottom-up "core affect" and top-down automatic construals.

Core affect itself consists of valence (i.e., positive vs negative affect - general feelings of goodness vs badness) and arousal. When you wake up on the wrong side of the bed feeling groggy and in a bad mood for no reason - that's core affect. Core affect is largely physiological. For instance, drugs like caffeine or epinephrine induce arousal, and many recreational drugs (including alcohol) induce positive affect. Panic is built around negative affect + high arousal. Which, of course, can be physiologically induced by hypercapnia, and that process is involuntary. (Although, as folks have pointed out, experienced divers may have the skillset to prevent those physiological responses, or in much more mild cases of panic use techniques like square breathing to manage/reduce their intensity).

How we experience that core affect as an emotion depends on our automatic construals - essentially how our brain interprets that affect, and what we think it "means." For instance, you're at the top of a roller coaster: your heart is racing, you can feel your pulse, your fingers are trembling. Are you excited or terrified? Depends on how you feel about heights and rollercoasters.

These aren't just semantics; feeling excited versus terrified is real to the person experiencing it - they really do feel different to us. Most construals happen fast and automatically - when we say that someone has "learned" a fear or panic response, this is often what we mean. For instance, coming to associate loud noises as a sign of danger, means that subsequent elevated arousal in response to a sudden loud noise will be felt as fear (not excitement), because our brains are putting together a recipe that high arousal + loud noise -> danger!

Those construals are automatic, and habitual; they happen largely outside of conscious awareness or attention. But we can also override them, either through slow conscious thought ("it's just fireworks") or by repeated exposure to the "threat" in safe environments that rewires our initial associations to change the automatic construals itself - this is the basis of exposure therapy, which is the gold standard for treating anxiety. In fact, in clinical psychology, one approach to treating panic and anxiety disorders is teaching people NOT to interpret their physiological indicators (fast heartrate, sweating, etc) as signs of anxiety, but to consider other possible benign interpretations ("maybe I just ran up the stairs too quickly"). And doing this reduces panic attacks.

All of this suggests a lot of reasons for some people are going to be more prone to panic than others, and why experience and training matter (but may not prevent panic entirely in extreme situations). In psychology, we have something called the "strong situation" hypothesis, which is that in sufficiently extreme situations, individual differences cease to matter. How much you as an individual love or detest running isn't going to matter if the building you're in is on fire - almost everyone is going to run out of a burning room, given the opportunity.

But, to bring it back to topic: some divers are going to be more prone to hypercapnia and the changes in core affect it produces, either by virtue of their physical fitness, their equipment, their dive plan, conservatism, etc. The more likely you are to experience the core affect needed to produce panic....the more likely you are to panic.

At the same time, what the brain "does" with that core affect matters. Research by Jim Blascovich for instance shows that novices experience heightened physiological responses as a "threat" (and tend to do poorly on tasks under high arousal), whereas more advanced folks experience those same response as a "challenge" (and tend to do better on tasks under high arousal). That effect replicates widely across contexts - for instance, being watched hurts performance in beginners, and helps performance in experts, because being watched by others induces arousal. Whether that's good or bad depends on whether it interferes with your skills - which for beginners who are using a lot of bandwidth (as someone mentioned above), it does! Same physiological response, different results.

More experienced divers are not only likely to know how to prevent hypercapnia, if they do experience it (at low levels) they are more likely to recognize it and correctly attribute those feelings to external sources ("I'm taking a CO2 hit", not "I'm out of my depth and about to die"). They are more likely to experience difficulties as challenges, rather than threats. They are more likely to have skills down pat, so that at low levels increased arousal is actually potentially beneficial (or at least not harmful) to their ability to get the job done. In other words, there are many reasons why experienced divers may be slower to "interpret" the physiological changes in core affect brought on by CO2 as "panic" per se - and thus, less likely to panic. And those factors may change not only from diver to diver, but from day to day, or from dive to dive.
 
The first time I did this it took all my will power to stay calm and not panic, I thought I was one breath away from a near drowning.
No matter how fit you are it is a mind thing.
Had to do it again years later, and again, I felt the same even knowing what to expect.
😵‍💫

That is why it is so expensive to teach these techniques. It requires a lot of slow progression and repetition, in addition to the physiology training. Freedivers come to advanced training about half way there already. Special forces come to drownproofing training with highly developed mental toughness and even then it requires many hours in the water to get to the actual drownproofing test.

The washout rate in special forces is pretty high in the beginning but the investment in people is significant by the time the get to drownproofing so the is a big incentive to give them all they need to succeed and avoid failing them.
 
Freedivers come to advanced training about half way there already.
I was a good freediver, even then I was only [at a guess] 25% ready.
The washout rate in special forces is pretty high in the beginning
Overcoming being cold, the ability or willingness to tolerate being cold, cold and tired.
You know what they say? Young and dumb, not dumb, you are numb.🥶
My 'breaking strain' for the cold now is .......about 10% of what it was.
 
@PirateFoxy - very good answer, thanks. Yours and @Germie answer got me thinking...if people like Guy who wanted to do these dives were denied instruction, would that stop them, or would they just buy the manuals/course materials and 'self-train?' Or, as Germie basically pointed out, would prospective course participants just learn what politically correct dogma to pretend to adhere to?

I don't know how the pro.s and con.s of that would weigh out. I tend to be cynical and quick to think about the law of unintended consequences.
I don’t think he said that the agency should deny a cert to someone who pushes the boundary, as long as the person adheres more or less to the protocol.

I think he is saying that he, as a person, does not want to be part of that.

I think an instructor can have a certain degree of freedom in what he believes is an acceptable behaviour. Or he could just refuse the student and reimburse him?

But maybe someone here will disagree and say that the pass grade should be uniform without a particular class/cert.
 

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