Doc Deep dies during dive.

[drrich2]

Why does the level of panic seem to be affected, to a certain degree, by training?

Perhaps instead of thinking of panic as an all or nothing event that totally compromises dive management capacity (like a generalized epileptic seizure would), we should think of it as debilitating (though not always totally so) and tying up a lot of mental 'bandwidth' otherwise used to manage buoyancy, monitor depth and gas supply, work through problems, etc...

There are people who have clinical panic attacks in their 'topside' lives, and if you read about those, they can be very intense and overwhelming. That said, they don't always completely remove rational thought and self-control.

What I'm getting around to is, the advanced diver doesn't require as much mental bandwidth to deal with the demands of diving. Even if CO2 mounts and triggers some panic, that reduced mental bandwidth he has left may be sufficient to handle his dive so he doesn't lose control.

While people here aren't arguing against the idea CO2 can induce intense anxiety, I doubt any of us would deny a person can develop marked anxiety in response to other things. So, if CO2 triggers a fairly mild panic in 2 divers, one a newbie straining under the task loading of the dive, the other a seasoned diver for whom basic diving is now intuitive, CO2 may trigger the same physiologically mediated panic, but then situational anxiety may add on top of that, throwing the newbie into more severe panic.

 

[kammel78]

Now if you can tell me why it differs from one person to another. Why does the level of panic seem to be affected, to a certain degree, by training? Also, why do people panic without a CO2 hit? There seems to be a lot of variables, and you are taking one off the table without evidence.

I agree that at a certain point one will succumb to CO2 with panic and/or death, but how it is reacted on the way up the hill will make a difference.

Are you asking me to explain why individuals have different responses to different levels of chemicals in their bodies? Ask an anesthesiologist why they have to sit by every patient and constantly monitor them.

You certainly can panic without elevated levels of PCO2 but high PCO2 is gonna make the probability go from "possible" to "probable". Lot's of people trip and fall...high levels of alcohol in the bloodstream increases those chances dramatically.

I'm saying the default to a diver who's experienced a panic attack while diving should be, "What are the external, likely PCO2 induced, factors that contributed to it?" and not "I guess they're just not mentally tough enough."

But, hey, feel free to reach out to the study I referenced and recommend to the experienced Navy divers who panicked in a 15' pool where they can get more training.

 

[Germie]

Perhaps instead of thinking of panic as an all or nothing event that totally compromises dive management capacity (like a generalized epileptic seizure would), we should think of it as debilitating (though not always totally so) and tying up a lot of mental 'bandwidth' otherwise used to manage buoyancy, monitor depth and gas supply, work through problems, etc...

There are people who have clinical panic attacks in their 'topside' lives, and if you read about those, they can be very intense and overwhelming. That said, they don't always completely remove rational thought and self-control.

What I'm getting around to is, the advanced diver doesn't require as much mental bandwidth to deal with the demands of diving. Even if CO2 mounts and triggers some panic, that reduced mental bandwidth he has left may be sufficient to handle his dive so he doesn't lose control.

While people here aren't arguing against the idea CO2 can induce intense anxiety, I doubt any of us would deny a person can develop marked anxiety in response to other things. So, if CO2 triggers a fairly mild panic in 2 divers, one a newbie straining under the task loading of the dive, the other a seasoned diver for whom basic diving is now intuitive, CO2 may trigger the same physiologically mediated panic, but then situational anxiety may add on top of that, throwing the newbie into more severe panic.

I think same. If you get more confident in things, the anxiety will drop.
Panic is not only CO2, but also a feeling of anxiety. And you can get away 1 trigger.
Otherwise, people who paniced in the past, will always panic again is the idea quite often. But is this true?

You can train panic. If you life in a place where a war starts, a lot of people will always get stress from loud things, even if it is just fireworks on new years eve. They get higher stresslevels by hearing things that would not give any stress before the war started. Sp the war trained panic.
The opposite thing can be done by training, people who get into panic when flying in an airplane can be trained to accept or sometimes relax flying in an airplane. So why would it impossible to train people under water to react better?

Dark waters in a beginning diver can be more stressfull than in an experience diver.

The things that are not trained good are forgotten first in a stress situation. So by training, things will become normal, you don't have to think anymore about it. And that means you can focus on the stress and no need to also focus on other things anymore.
First you are incapable, then you are knowing that you are incapable, then you are capable when you concentrate on the thing you have to do. And the last stap is becoming capable without thinking about what you are doing.

 

[Bob DBF]

Perhaps instead of thinking of panic as an all or nothing event that totally compromises dive management capacity (like a generalized epileptic seizure would), we should think of it as debilitating (though not always totally so) and tying up a lot of mental 'bandwidth' otherwise used to manage buoyancy, monitor depth and gas supply, work through problems, etc...

I am not the person that disagrees with you. My experience has been that a CO2 hit can be managed, to a certain extent, by the diver.

But, hey, feel free to reach out to the study I referenced and recommend to the experienced Navy divers who panicked in a 15' pool where they can get more training.

"...."an experienced Navy diver described a sudden sense of panic as his PETCO2 climbed from about 60 to 65 Torr."

If you could quote the part where the divers panicked during the study it would be more helpful. I do not disagree that elevated CO2 will cause feelings of panic, what one does with those feelings may change the outcome.

I'm saying the default to a diver who's experienced a panic attack while diving should be, "What are the external, likely PCO2 induced, factors that contributed to it?" and not "I guess they're just not mentally tough enough."

...and what is the difference between one who analyzes the problem, and one who succumbs to panic?
It seems your answer is only is the the level of CO2. I am just glad I did not have that mindset when faced with my first hit when deep.

 

[kammel78]

I am not the person that disagrees with you. My experience has been that a CO2 hit can be managed, to a certain extent, by the diver.



"...."an experienced Navy diver described a sudden sense of panic as his PETCO2 climbed from about 60 to 65 Torr."

If you could quote the part where the divers panicked during the study it would be more helpful. I do not disagree that elevated CO2 will cause feelings of panic, what one does with those feelings may change the outcome.




...and what is the difference between one who analyzes the problem, and one who succumbs to panic?
It seems your answer is only is the the level of CO2. I am just glad I did not have that mindset when faced with my first hit when deep.

Look, I’m not here to argue science vs your “experience”. The quote is the actual quote. I also provided references so feel free to educate yourself (or not as it seems).

 

[The Chairman]

Why does the level of panic seem to be affected, to a certain degree, by training?

Training can't teach you how to deal with hypercapnia. It should teach you how to avoid or limit the CO₂ hit it in the first place.

 

[Lorenzoid]

The dictionary definitions of "panic" that I can find all seem to involve a fright or fear. For example: "a sudden overpowering fright." Definition of PANIC The effect of CO2 can turn some fright or fear that we could otherwise have kept under control into something suddenly overpowering.

I find drrich's and Germie's thoughts persuasive.

What I'm getting around to is, the advanced diver doesn't require as much mental bandwidth to deal with the demands of diving. Even if CO2 mounts and triggers some panic, that reduced mental bandwidth he has left may be sufficient to handle his dive so he doesn't lose control.

 

[Bob DBF]

Training can't teach you how to deal with hypercapnia. It should teach you how to avoid or limit the CO₂ hit it in the first place.

Fair enough, you are more eloquent than I.

 

[KevinNM]

I don't think this is true. There is no way to inure yourself from panic. Training can open your eyes to how to avoid situations that lead to panic, but ol' man Murphy is an evil and sneaky sumbitch. He'll hit you when you least expect it with more than you think is possible.

I have been told, by people who have had a lot of people try to kill them, that your 5th gunfight you will be a whole lot more effective than your first. You learn to handle the dump of hormones and avoid tunnel vision and fixation and actually problem solve instead of react. Don’t know.

 

[kammel78]

I have been told, by people who have had a lot of people try to kill them, that your 5th gunfight you will be a whole lot more effective than your first. You learn to handle the dump of hormones and avoid tunnel vision and fixation and actually problem solve instead of react. Don’t know.

So the Navy divers who experienced panic in a 15' foot pool...they didn't have enough 15' pool dives to build up the ability to "handle the dump of hormones"?