Do you use reg. necklace for your primary?

[Peter Guy]

Boxcar -- much earlier you made one comment that I believe is just dead wrong

Other than that [OOA], there's no reason for us[recreational divers] to have a long hose.

I'm a recreational diver (at least I certainly am when I'm diving "recreationally" -- i.e., open water and looking at the pretty fishies). Especially when I'm on a charter, I've found it very convenient to use my buddy's long hose so that we can "balance out" the air in our tanks (usually AL80's). I tend to use about 33% more air than my buddy so often, about 1/2 way through the dive, I'll mosey up and request a "cup of air" -- long hose handed off to me and we swim merrily along looking at the pretty fishies. After draining my buddy's tank down to my pressure (usually done when buddy at 2000 psi and I'm at 1500), I give the reg back, go onto my own gas and we continue looking at the pretty fishies.

No fuss, no muss. I don't think this would be any where nearly as feasible to do if we didn't use the standard Hog rig -- long hose primary, short (and bungied) secondary.

So, contrary to your statement, a truly recreational diver buddy pair can have a very good use for the traditional longhose/bungied backup.

 

[jimdiverman]

There is no dispute that one could teach a new diver to configure and donate your way, or that a new diver could easily learn from themselves over the internet.

Really? It's easy to train divers over the Internet? There's no dispute about that?

The Internet is not the place to learn to dive or to teach it. Every manual for every dive course I have ever taken required a human instructor, and it stated so in the manual. This thread is a classic example of why many serious divers and many instructors that I respect have nothing good to say about these forums. People like you that think they know what's best and what should be taught are the main reason. Divers that don't know think that you do because you "act" like you do. It's bad all the way around. Nobody wins even if you think you can win an "argument" over the Internet from the protection of your home behind the keyboard and monitor. You only do damage when you teach without a license.

It would have been better if this thread had ended 2 days ago.

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

Really? It's easy to train divers over the Internet? There's no dispute about that?

The Internet is not the place to learn to dive or to teach it. Every manual for every dive course I have ever taken required a human instructor, and it stated so in the manual. This thread is a classic example of why many serious divers and many instructors that I respect have nothing good to say about these forums. People like you that think they know what's best and what should be taught are the main reason. Divers that don't know think that you do because you "act" like you do. It's bad all the way around. Nobody wins even if you think you can win an "argument" over the Internet from the protection of your home behind the keyboard and monitor. You only do damage when you teach without a license.

It would have been better if this thread had ended 2 days ago.

Yeah... so why are people recommending that divers change over to the "hose behind the neck" system over the internet? I mean, if you believe what you are saying you would just recommend that people stick with what they learned from their instructor. According to you, routing the hose behind the neck is soooo complex that there's no way one could see it done on the internet and do it the same way, right? The pictures and videos aren't enough, because this is pretty tricky business. You need to pay in instructor for this kind of high level training.

Puh-leez.

By the way, where do you think I came up with this? Did you think I invented it? The way I'm describing is the exact way many instructors have. It's very common. After thinking about it, I decided that one way was better the other. But next time I see my former AOW instructor I'll tell him what you said. I'm sure he cares, and even though he has about 15K dives under this method, he'll be happy to know The Right Way.

Really, it would be easier for me to stop posting if people would stop replying to me and quoting my post. I said I was done, and then 3 people came along trying to draw me back in.

I know it will be hard for you not to respond. I know that, as you read this your fist are clenched and your teeth are gnashing, and you just can't wait to get on the keyboard and tell me how I'm single handedly killing divers because I advocate the classic method rather than the tec method.

But a really good way for this thread to end is if people like you stop posting in it. I promise I will if you do.

 

[digital_steve]

Boxcar -- much earlier you made one comment that I believe is just dead wrong

I'm a recreational diver (at least I certainly am when I'm diving "recreationally" -- i.e., open water and looking at the pretty fishies). Especially when I'm on a charter, I've found it very convenient to use my buddy's long hose so that we can "balance out" the air in our tanks (usually AL80's). I tend to use about 33% more air than my buddy so often, about 1/2 way through the dive, I'll mosey up and request a "cup of air" -- long hose handed off to me and we swim merrily along looking at the pretty fishies. After draining my buddy's tank down to my pressure (usually done when buddy at 2000 psi and I'm at 1500), I give the reg back, go onto my own gas and we continue looking at the pretty fishies.

No fuss, no muss. I don't think this would be any where nearly as feasible to do if we didn't use the standard Hog rig -- long hose primary, short (and bungied) secondary.

So, contrary to your statement, a truly recreational diver buddy pair can have a very good use for the traditional longhose/bungied backup.

So you use the longhose to compensate for crap gas management?

 

[Scubastud16]

So you use the longhose to compensate for crap gas management?

Considering the fact that he is cave trained, I can assure you that his gas management is not poor. In fact, he's showing his management is pretty good...he know's exactly what his breathing rate and consumption are like, and he has planned his dives for it. His consumption is what you refer to, and that's a biological factor, not mental.

TSandM, puh-leeeease close this thread.

 

[digital_steve]

He's cave trained
Oh well... he's better than everyone else then!
I find it weird to include someone elses gas in your management... but live and let live i reckon! until there are laws governing how you dive, do it how you like.
To me though, it's crap gas management

 

[Scubastud16]

He's cave trained
Oh well... he's better than everyone else then!

No, but if you knew the first thing about cave training, or cave diving, you would understand that proper gas management is what keeps you alive down there.

 

[Peter Guy]

To me though, it's crap gas management

(Note -- off topic of course!) Would you please explain why you think it is "crap gas management?"

As explained, it is:

A. discussed before hand (i.e., part of the dive plan);

B. done only when both my buddy and I are, in fact, breathing normally (i.e., me around .45 SAC and buddy around .34 which are the norms for warm open water);

C. We both maintain our "minimum safety reserves" (aka Rock Bottom) on our own backs.

At home, in OW, we don't do this beause my buddy dives an LP95 and I dive an HP130 so we tend to reach our minimums at the same times without "gas equalizing".

When you dive with a buddy with a significantly different SAC rate, what strategy do you use to maximize your BT -- or do you use one?

BTW, my buddy and I have been doing this long before either of us went into a Cave. We just decided it made sense because, well because I just use more gas than my buddy. If we always came up on my Rock Bottom, then my buddy's gas would just "be wasted" -- so waste not, want not!

 

[digital_steve]

mate, i totally accept that'sd how you dive and have no problem with it
for me, i would hire a bigger tank, or take my own, sling a small stage or just pull the pin on the dive early.
i just think that reliance on someone else's gas source to complete your planned dive is a bit dodgy... not life threatening, but certainly not best practice.
at least it's discussed beforehand and everyone know's what's happening. as for wasted, if it's air or nitrox then i guess you wouldn't worry, but if it's trimix then i could understand even more.

in saying all that, i would never tell someone else how to dive... i'm just expressing my opinion that i wouldn't be doing it.
also i thought it was funny that one of the reasons for the long hose on you and your buddy's rig was for this

scubastud - you know nothing about me or my knowledge or i of yours, so cut the **** talk

 

[TSandM]

i just think that reliance on someone else's gas source to complete your planned dive is a bit dodgy

I completely agree with this. If you have PLANNED a given dive based on somebody else's gas, you're off base.

If you are doing an "all available gas" dive, and enjoy increasing your bottom time by equalizing supplies (where the only tanks available are one size fits all) AND you have the option of ending the dive at any time, I see no harm in sharing gas for a while in the middle of the dive. At least it's a way of practicing air-sharing on a more frequent basis -- Beats learning to do it in class and never doing it again, right?