Do you use reg. necklace for your primary?

[TSandM]

But I don't think it's as good a configuration in an emergency situation as the old school way for recreational diving. I think it is needlessly complex for recreational diving. I think that there are more potential problems when the donator is not in control of the situation and is out of trim and a panicked diver is trying to use self-help - which for a rec dive is probably the modal actual OOA experience.

Since in both cases, you have the length of a 5' or 7' hose to deal with, how does your system make it more controlled?

I just keep shaking my head at the idea that the wrapped hose is more complicated than your system. There's nothing complicated about the wrapped hose. It doesn't require tank bungies, there's no portion of it that's excluded from my view or my reach, and donation is instant. Although you make a large distinction between technical and recreational diving, I would say that technical divers would not adopt a system that made gas donation MORE complicated. The risks are too high.

I completely fail to see why the average recreational diver cannot easily learn to use a wrapped 5' hose. And I base that on having helped several VERY new divers convert to that setup. None has had any significant difficulty with it, and all have been able to donate quickly and effectively.

 

[Oxy]

I haven't done it but I have a great imagination. I can see the merits for routing a long (7ft) primary hose the way it goes. but if it were an alternate (not currently in use) why route the hose? Stow it! Belt, bag, innertube, whatever and having the 2nd stage exposed (visible) readily available and just as easy to grab as your primary just seems right to me. ( I think I have made up my mind as to how I want to setup my rig )

Boxcar! what do you think of velcro in strategic places to contain the hose?

Edit: my imagination may have answered me. Velcro loops so the hose can be slid a little (to my mouth) without having to dislodge velcro first.

 

[jimdiverman]

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Logged Dives: None - Not Certified

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

Since in both cases, you have the length of a 5' or 7' hose to deal with, how does your system make it more controlled?

I just keep shaking my head at the idea that the wrapped hose is more complicated than your system. There's nothing complicated about the wrapped hose. It doesn't require tank bungies, there's no portion of it that's excluded from my view or my reach, and donation is instant. Although you make a large distinction between technical and recreational diving, I would say that technical divers would not adopt a system that made gas donation MORE complicated. The risks are too high.

I completely fail to see why the average recreational diver cannot easily learn to use a wrapped 5' hose. And I base that on having helped several VERY new divers convert to that setup. None has had any significant difficulty with it, and all have been able to donate quickly and effectively.

None of this is rocket science. It's not hard to figure out either method.

Both ways are simple and easy if the donator is in control of the situation and handing off the hose as per text book. But when a panicked diver grabs the reg (or hose) at a time and angle the donator is not prepared for, that's when the two systems are different.

Let me ask this way - what do you gain from placing the hose behind your head that you wouldn't get by running it directly too your mouth, (or putting it on the D-ring)? How does placing the hose behind your head make it more simple or safer? I think the answer is that it doesn't. In a controlled exchange, I think it makes no difference that the hose is back there, because the task is trivial. But if there is a panicked diver doing self-help, I think there are more risk to your configuration than you are willing to admit.

Placing the hose in a bungie on the tank is pretty much the same as tucking the excess hose in your belt. It works the same way, unfolds just as easily, and in fact they are right next to each other. I prefer one, but I can't see why it would make a difference one way or the other.

Tec divers have different considerations than rec divers. The example I read earlier was that they need to ensure that the receiving diver got the right mix of air, and that's why the primary was donated. That's not a concern for a rec diver.

But more than that, just because a complete system is optimized for cave diving doesn't mean each individual component of that system is optimized for rec diving. In fact, isn't it part of the DIR philosophy that you shouldn't take just portions of the configuration piecemeal? It's sort of "in for a penny, in for a pound", no? Don't they advise against mixing and matching configurations? If so, shouldn't you advise people that your recommendations are only valid if they are willing to follow you all the way down the rabbit's hole? For example, when you advise rec divers to use the hose your way, shouldn't you also tell them that they probably, (although not necessarily) need to get rid of their snorkel too? (Which, to be fair, I don't use at any rate.)

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

I completely fail to see why the average recreational diver cannot easily learn to use a wrapped 5' hose. And I base that on having helped several VERY new divers convert to that setup. None has had any significant difficulty with it, and all have been able to donate quickly and effectively.

One more point, because this keeps coming up.

When you are training the diver on the new setup, are you teaching them how to do the exchange as per a basic 5 drill, or are you teaching them what to do if you are swimming in trim and someone comes up from underneath you and yanks the reg out of your mouth?

Because, as I've said a few hundred times now, I agree that a normal controlled exchange is trivial. It's easy. There is no dispute that one could teach a new diver to configure and donate your way, or that a new diver could easily learn from themselves over the internet.

It's only the panicked diver doing self-help that is in dispute. Being honest here, are you training them for that? And if so, how?

 

[psychocabbage]

I dont care who is right here... I just have to say Kudos to Boxcar for continueing it all!

I personally would just deploy my knife if someone tried to take my primary..

 

[TSandM]

Lots of people dive a long hose/bungied backup without anything else that goes in the DIR system. It's quite possible to use a 5' hose with a traditional BC, for example. The DIR system is a holistic system; you can't pick and choose pieces of it and be DIR, and SOME pieces don't work in isolation. But the longer hose and donating the primary does.

I don't think anybody, anywhere, teaches what to do when you are mugged for your regulator by a panicked diver. That's not what we did in my OW class or my Rescue class, or any other class I've taken. But short of someone approaching me FROM BEHIND, reaching in front of me FROM MY LEFT, and attempting to pull the regulator out of my mouth TO MY LEFT, there is no way you can approach me that the long hose won't slide off if it's pulled.

Routing the hose behind the neck uses up some of the length, but it also ensures that the hose comes smoothly forward from behind me, and allows the reg to sit comfortably without the use of a swivel or angled connector.

It is true that one of the reasons for donating the primary in technical diving is that you know the gas mixture flowing into it is appropriate for the depth where you are. And that doesn't pertain to recreational diving. But the principle that that regulator is working AND is very, very fast to donate DOES apply to recreational diving.

I think this is the last I am going to write on this thread; it is very clear that you and I have different and fairly strong opinions on the subject, and as I have said repeatedly, I don't care what you do. I care what you say, and what impressions new divers reading this thread are taking away from the discussion, because there is a lot of misinformation here.

 

[lowviz]

Routing the hose behind the neck uses up some of the length, but it also ensures that the hose comes smoothly forward from behind me, and allows the reg to sit comfortably without the use of a swivel or angled connector.

Disclaimer: This is not a troll or an intent to keep stirring the pot.

TSandM,
Before you bail, and in keeping with the OP's asking what other people are doing, what is your personal view of a 45 degree swivel connector? I find I can keep a cleaner profile with one and it is also more comfortable. The only downside (for me) is that it is a bit harder to retain possession of the primary reg when donating. Please comment (also applies to anyone on this thread).

Regards.

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

Lots of people dive a long hose/bungied backup without anything else that goes in the DIR system. It's quite possible to use a 5' hose with a traditional BC, for example. The DIR system is a holistic system; you can't pick and choose pieces of it and be DIR, and SOME pieces don't work in isolation. But the longer hose and donating the primary does.

I don't think anybody, anywhere, teaches what to do when you are mugged for your regulator by a panicked diver. That's not what we did in my OW class or my Rescue class, or any other class I've taken. But short of someone approaching me FROM BEHIND, reaching in front of me FROM MY LEFT, and attempting to pull the regulator out of my mouth TO MY LEFT, there is no way you can approach me that the long hose won't slide off if it's pulled.

Routing the hose behind the neck uses up some of the length, but it also ensures that the hose comes smoothly forward from behind me, and allows the reg to sit comfortably without the use of a swivel or angled connector.

It is true that one of the reasons for donating the primary in technical diving is that you know the gas mixture flowing into it is appropriate for the depth where you are. And that doesn't pertain to recreational diving. But the principle that that regulator is working AND is very, very fast to donate DOES apply to recreational diving.

I think this is the last I am going to write on this thread; it is very clear that you and I have different and fairly strong opinions on the subject, and as I have said repeatedly, I don't care what you do. I care what you say, and what impressions new divers reading this thread are taking away from the discussion, because there is a lot of misinformation here.

So you don't care what I do, just so long as I don't dispute that your way of diving is the safest and simplest way for every diving application, and any one who doesn't acknowledge that is spreading misinformation - either because they are incompetent or dishonest. I think I understand now!

I can think of a lot more scenarios that would be problematic then what you describe. What if a panicked diver is clung to your waist and pulling straight down your body? What if they reach and grab the primary reg hose and the bungee for your octo at the same time? This is not something you need a class for, (which is why I wondered why you keep bringing that up) so much as just thinking it through - which is safer, having a hose wrapped around your body and equipment, or not?

Okay, the comments from the peanut gallery are telling me my work here is through. So I'll stop posting too.

 

[John_B]

It's only the panicked diver doing self-help that is in dispute. Being honest here, are you training them for that? And if so, how?

Does this actually happen to you, that you've been mugged for your reg from below by a complete stranger who was completely out of air?

In that situation, the most important thing to me wouldn't be whether to wrap or stow, it would be to have my bungied backup right below my chin. That was how it was explained and demonstrated to me, that you should never hesitate to donate the primary quickly because the backup is always right there. And then practice as part of the "Basic 5"* at the beginning of every dive. YMMV.

Honestly, this is probably more about taking a rescue course (which I keep meaning to do) than wrapping or stowing.

*[SIZE=-2]Actually I learned this as the "Basic 6", but that's a whole 'nother thread.[/SIZE]