Do you dive with strokes?

[MBH]

Will I dive with a non DIR diver? Sure I will.
Will I dive with a stroke? No.
Here's the straight scoop from GI3.

WHAT IS A STROKE ?
(written by George Irvine)
Very simply put, a "stroke" is somebody you don't want to dive with. It is somebody who will cause you problems, or not be any use to you if you have problems. Usually, this is a reflection of the attitude of a stroke, but that can be inherent in the personality of the individual, or others can teach it.

For instance, if somebody is taught that diving is an "every man for himself" sport, that you "can't help somebody deep," that "my gas is my gas," or "know when to leave your buddy," then that is somebody you do not want to be in the water with. Some people are natural strokes, but all too many are created. Unfortunately, people believe best what they hear first, and given the low-level food chain structure of dive instruction, most strokes are man-made, and are then hard to fix.

Obvious strokes are not so bad - you can see them and you know to avoid them. Frequently they will give it away with their choice of gear and gear configuration. If you see something that is a complete mess, makes no sense, is less than optimal, or is designed to accommodate some phobia while ignoring all else, you are dealing with a stroke. If the stroke is pontificating about how he can "handle" deep air diving, or obsessing about depth, or appears to be trying to compensate for internal fears, this is an obvious stroke and you merely avoid them.

The really insidious strokes are those who pretend to be squared away, but are in this game for all the wrong reasons. Usually they wish to prove something to themselves or others, or to overcome some internal fears. These tend to try to do things that they are not ready to do, and when something goes wrong, they flee for their lives.

Diving is not an intuitive thing. It is not a natural thing. Natural reactions of human beings on dry land do not work underwater. To be a good diver, you have to control your natural responses, and know that they can only hurt you, not help you. A stroke cannot do that. A stroke is driven by fear, ego, bull**** and self-concern.

 

[BabyDuck]

here's my non-dir, slightly tech perspective -

dive with someone new? absolutely, up to their training/education/skills level. maybe try to mentor or teach.

dive with someone who sucks and knows it and is trying to improve? yep, as above, but i'm not good enough to do a 'tough-for-me' dive with this person. as in, i'd dive the quarry or the reef, but not the cave, even if they have a cave card, if i can't respect their skills *yet*. as they improve, i'd re-think that.

dive with someone who sucks and has no desire to change and wants to drag me down to them instead of them trying to improve? once. that's how i'd learn they suck. then not again until/unless their epiphany.

of course, 'suckiness' is a matter of my perception and is therefore subjective.

and, of course, i'm the stroke in my group, so that tells you how valuable all this perspective is!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

OK ... I'll go out on a limb here ...

Yes, I dive with strokes.

I'm not talking about people from "other" dive agencies ... I'm talking about people who I perceive to be unsafe. I'll put some limitations on the dive profile, and prepare as best I can for the risks ... but I do it for a reason.

I occasionally run into a diver who simply doesn't have a good approach to diving ... sometimes it's that guy who's doing deep dives on AL80's or on air. Sometimes it's the guy who "thinks" he's ready for solo. And sometimes it's just that poor soul who's trying to "keep up" with a friend or a spouse who's way more advanced than them, but doesn't know enough to stay away from dive profiles that are way over their head.

You see these people on the Internet all the time ... they usually get pretty defensive when you try to convince them that what they're doing isn't a good idea. Some of you would consider them a complete waste of time ... and sometimes you'd be right. I take a different view ... sometimes it's just ignorance, or someone who's never actually had a good example to follow.

So I'll dive with these people. If it turns out that they've got an open mind toward improving their diving, I'll continue to dive with them. I've had my failures ... but overall I've got a pretty good success rate at helping people realize that what they've been doing isn't a good approach to diving. Not surprising ... a lot of these people end up in a Fundies class at some point.

I don't "sell" 'em anything ... I just show them a different way to dive. They can decide for themselves whether or not to follow my example ... but at least after a dive or two, they have a better idea of the alternatives.

The Internet doesn't translate that very well ... people who you can write off as a total waste of time often turn out to be people who have a genuine interest in being good, safe divers ... they just never had a reasonable example of what that involves.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jeckyll]

..

I dive with a variety of non-DIR divers. My big criteria for somebody I'll dive with are that the person has to be an attentive buddy (take off on me, and you aren't going to get invited back) and not a silter, although I waive that for new divers But I'll readily admit that it's an awful lot of fun when you have a good team, run efficiently and quickly through planning and pre-dive checks, and get in the water and dive seamlessly, with good communication and good skills. There's really a grace to those dives. (You don't have to be DIR to do them, either ...

(bold mine)

That's my criteria. I've had great dives with DIR divers (when I wasn't "DIR"), but I've had more great dives with non-DIR divers (simply because I happen to dive more with non-DIR divers).

Here is the GI3 definition of 'unsafe diver', which is what I replaced the "S-word" with.

WHAT IS A UNSAFE DIVER ?
(Modified by me to remove the 's-word')

Very simply put, a "unsafe diver" is somebody you don't want to dive with. It is somebody who will cause you problems, or not be any use to you if you have problems. Usually, this is a reflection of the attitude of a unsafe diver, but that can be inherent in the personality of the individual, or others can teach it.
For instance, if somebody is taught that diving is an "every man for himself" sport, that you "can't help somebody deep," that "my gas is my gas," or "know when to leave your buddy," then that is somebody you do not want to be in the water with. Some people are natural unsafe divers, but all too many are created. Unfortunately, people believe best what they hear first, and given the low-level food chain structure of dive instruction, most unsafe divers are man-made, and are then hard to fix.
Obvious unsafe divers are not so bad - you can see them and you know to avoid them. Frequently they will give it away with their choice of gear and gear configuration. If you see something that is a complete mess, makes no sense, is less than optimal, or is designed to accommodate some phobia while ignoring all else, you are dealing with a unsafe diver. If the unsafe diver is pontificating about how he can "handle" deep air diving, or obsessing about depth, or appears to be trying to compensate for internal fears, this is an obvious unsafe diver and you merely avoid them.
The really insidious unsafe divers are those who pretend to be squared away, but are in this game for all the wrong reasons. Usually they wish to prove something to themselves or others, or to overcome some internal fears. These tend to try to do things that they are not ready to do, and when something goes wrong, they flee for their lives.
Diving is not an intuitive thing. It is not a natural thing. Natural reactions of human beings on dry land do not work underwater. To be a good diver, you have to control your natural responses, and know that they can only hurt you, not help you. A unsafe diver cannot do that. A unsafe diver is driven by fear, ego, bull**** and self-concern.​

I don't dive with people I consider unsafe. Why would I want to after all ...

*edit* Bob, I'm glad you are willing to try. I don't get out often enough as it is. If someone is starting out and interested in improving their diving, I have no problem heading out with them. Not to preach, just to dive with them. But if someone's been diving for a long time and just has an approach that I feel is unsuited to how I dive, I won't waste my time. FWIW, I did that before DIR training, just like I do it after . Just as I do it in other hobbies.

 

[Gombessa]

Thanks for the discussion everyone. Perhaps I should have known, but I wasn't aware it was a loaded term.

As far as "unsafe divers" goes, the only ones I've seen that fell into this category were a couple of spring-break types who walked into the shop during my cert class, trying to talk the staff into letting them squeeze onto the charter that morning because they didn't have much time, and were "flying out this evening." When they were told it was unsafe, they responded "We've done it before," and "you only live once," and said they would hit the other shops until someone let them on a boat. Now that really sounded like an accident waiting to happen.

 

[MBH]

Bob, I admire your willingness and your ability to help other divers make real improvements. I wish we had more recreational instructors like you around. Many, many divers who come out of OW or AOW and who are a total mess in the water, but who are willing to work on improving their skills are not necessarily strokes. I would call them works in progress. I'll dive with people like that any day. We all have to start somewhere.

However.....some divers are just beyond help, usually those that can't seem to put their egos into neutral. Those are the ones I try to stay away from. The one most important thing that I figured out was- I could learn vast amounts from divers who are WAY better than me if I just left my ego at home.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

However.....some divers are just beyond help, usually those that can't seem to put their egos into neutral. Those are the ones I try to stay away from. The one most important thing that I figured out was- I could learn vast amounts from divers who are WAY better than me if I just left my ego at home.

I agree ... but you can't always tell by talking to someone on the Internet.

Had a recent example ... a fellow who was bragging on another board about doing a dive to 130+ feet on an AL80 ... at a site that's known for strong currents. He came across as a serious ego tripper ... and a few of us tried talking to him about his diving. He got defensive ... and the conversation went downhill from there.

So I sent the dude a PM, and after a few exchanges, we decided to go diving together. The person I met wasn't at all the guy I was expecting to meet. What came across as ego on the Internet turned out to be nothing more than enthusiasm in real life. The dude loves to dive, and the way he was diving was just a reflection of the way he'd been taught to dive ... it never occurred to him that there was anything wrong with it.

We had a pleasant dive. I've since received e-mails from him asking some good questions about gas management and other topics he hadn't previously given much thought to ... nor would he if I'd just written him off as someone I wouldn't dive with.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if he ended up in a Fundies class someday.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Gombessa]

I agree ... but you can't always tell by talking to someone on the Internet.

That's an excellent point that really can't be made enough nowdays. Thanks for enlightening story and the open mind, Bob!

 

[ffestpirate]

Your honorary leader dives with strokes

 

[jeckyll]

Your honorary leader dives with strokes

Sorry, I must have missed the memo, who's that?