Do training dives (at depth) count as your dive count for Tech cert?

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I don't think anything in the gue valve drill is superfluous. Signaling your buddy? Not having dangling regs getting caught in the line or maybe even scooter? Purging the reg to see if the leak was actually what you thought it was?

These are all real life things. Doing them slow and smooth makes sense in the beginning. Hell, doing it smooth and correctly matters when something breaks for real, too. Compounding issues because you get sloppy from rushing isn't going to make your situation any better. Saving 10mins of gas doesn't help of you added 20mins of dive time because you lost visibility and are now lost in a cave.
 
Tec40-50 as a single course is a tall order - IF high quality standards are demanded by the instructor. Especially so if the course is 'finished' in the minimum timescale/dive requirement (4 dives per module). In most cases, the student benefits from some time/practice between modules to raise their game. There SHOULD be a significant rise in skill between each course - especially in respect to fundamental skills.

Given that the OP is restricted in diving opportunities, except going deeper in the same freshwater location, I see little reason to rush the process of Tec40-50. Do some research on developing good fundamental skills and see what the tech 'community' generally expects from a tech diver at progressive certification levels... spend time developing to that level.

Be wary of instructors who pitch technical classes as some sort of 'attendance' class. Most recreational divers enrolling for technical training have woefully weak fundamental skills. As people have mentioned - the ability to conduct a valve drill without losing situational awareness, buoyancy or trim is a good example of this....

Offering a string of tech courses as a single package kinda indicates that the student will pass each module/class in the minimum requirements. A small percentage of divers might manage that impressive skill development speed.... but most won't.

That can only mean that the instructor concerned either doesn't understand the proper standards themselves (under-skilled); or they don't care about their students reaching those standards (unethical).... or the instructor has a system of requiring remedial dives that they haven't explained to you... and you might be disappointed to not progress at the speed in which you were initially led to believe you would.

My advice is to undertake Tec40.... see how you fare.... fix your weak areas....and only then progress further.

Most importantly - do thoroughly research your potential tech instructor. There are some good resources online (and on this forum) that give you guidance on how to do that. Your initial steps into technical diving are the most important - as these have the most profound effect on shaping your expectations, personal standards and mindset.

Don't let a cowboy tech instructor undermine your development in tech diving - it's not just a waste of money.... technical diving is much less forgiving than recreational diving and there can be very real negative consequences to card-collecting on economy courses....
 
The only thing I would say is that 30 dives to 40 metres (say 130 feet) in a quarry is not the equivalent experience of 30 dives to the same depth in the ocean. In the ocean you have to worry about current, surge, wave action etc whereas in a quarry (or a lake for the most part) you do not have these things to worry about.
 
There is also the argument to be made about where the diver plans to do the dives the course qualifies him for. I have experience in freshwater, the Keys, Bonaire, St Lawrence, Monterrey, and Puerto Rico. However there are a number of tech guys who only do their tech dives in the Great Lakes. Surge, high current, a lot of waves, etc. usually do not come into play. What does is dark, very cold, low vis, and lots of exposure protection. Doing the training initially in a deep dark, dark, cold quarry or lake at 130 feet in 38 degree water does prepare them for that. While these guys do go to other locations and dive, they are doing those on vacation and not doing tech dives.
For Adv Nitrox and Deco I use a deep, dark, cold as hell quarry. If I know that the diver plans to dive other places then we'll figure on those for the last series of dives. It depends on their goal and how much they are willing to spend. I'm more than happy to do their last few dives in any of those other places as long as they understand the cost is going to go up.
 
The valve drill is something of a pet peeve of mine. I have had to do it with several different agencies, and I disagree with all of them.

I first got it down in the GUE/UTD fashion, which is a beautiful work of art taking forever. I can't even remember how many actual steps it took to complete it. When I crossed over from UTD to TDI for trimix training and was asked to do it, I focused hard and did the very best UTD valve drill I had ever done. I wished someone had videoed it. Back on the boat, my instructor told me that it was just plain horrible--I would have to work hard to improve that. He was all about speed. He did not care if I flashed my teammates at each step and told them to watch me do the valve drill. He did not care if I clipped off my primary after switching. He did not care if I breathed each of the regulators down after shutting off the valve. He wanted me to show that I could open/close those damn valves in a hurry in case of an emergency. Once I figured that out, I could do it to his satisfaction. I actually got to nearly 30 seconds when I got my TDI instructor rating, and I did that in a very non-UTD way. While my right hand was turning my right post back on, my left hand was closing the manifold. While my right hand was opening the manifold, my left hand was shutting down the left post. It was not pretty, but it was fast.

What is the purpose of a valve drill? It is not something that will ever be done for real on any dive. There is no real point in doing the entire drill in terms of learning a skill. The purpose of it is to make sure you can open or close those valves in a hurry when you need to, without crashing into the silt or rocketing to the surface. To me, that means you need to be able to get to ANY of the valves in a hurry, but I don't see the point in getting to ALL of the valves in a hurry. I don't see the point in all the superfluous beauty of the GUE/UTD process, none of which will happen when there is caca on the fan. That is why I disagree with both approaches.I do follow the standards, though, in part because I know that once the student is certified, he or she will get a survey asking if they had to do the valve drill in 45 seconds.

You completely missed the diagnostic component of the drill. How, in all this speed, are you figuring out where the actual problem is? I mean you could save something between 1/2 and ALL your gas by shutting down all the valves. But what good is that?

The reason your TDI instructor had you hustling is because there was no assumption of a buddy in that hurried process. It was all about saving every last bubble of your precious gas as fast as possible. Slowing down when the caca hits the fan is crucial to avoid, losing the line, blowing out the vis, misunderstanding where the leak actually is etc. Even if your tanks completely drained (which they won't) your buddy (the one you signaled) still has enough gas to get you out in a GUE/UTD process. Who knows with TDI.
 
You completely missed the diagnostic component of the drill. How, in all this speed, are you figuring out where the actual problem is?

In most cases, it's quite evident. What matters is a fast diagnosis and reaction to preserve gas. Speed must be a critical factor in a drill that is time-critical for survival. This is not a leisurely protocol. How you train is how you react. Over-prescriptive training can serve to decrease reaction time in a real situation.

The reason your TDI instructor had you hustling is because there was no assumption of a buddy in that hurried process.

I see nothing wrong in that assumption; even when diving with a heavily team-driven focus. Waiting for even the most attentive buddy, adding superfluous signals and steps...merely equates to more gas lost.

It was all about saving every last bubble of your precious gas as fast as possible.

What other goal is there?

Slowing down when the caca hits the fan is crucial to avoid, losing the line, blowing out the vis, misunderstanding where the leak actually is etc.

This is entirely about ingrained fundamental skills and nothing to do with the valve drill. If fundamental skills degrade when other tasks are performed (regardless of speed), then it indicates the diver has not sufficiently mastered autonomic control in the water.

Maintaining buoyancy, trim, situational awareness.... are prerequisites to technical diving. They should be a given factor before the student even learns valve drills.

Even if your tanks completely drained (which they won't) your buddy (the one you signaled) still has enough gas to get you out in a GUE/UTD process. Who knows with TDI.

I doubt there's any agency that'd put divers in a situation where they had insufficient gas to exit from air-sharing. I don't see why you'd laud GUE/UTD as being remarkable.... when it comes to such a fundamental and global concept as team gas management?
 
In most cases, it's quite evident. What matters is a fast diagnosis and reaction to preserve gas. Speed must be a critical factor in a drill that is time-critical for survival. This is not a leisurely protocol. How you train is how you react. Over-prescriptive training can serve to decrease reaction time in a real situation.

I see nothing wrong in that assumption; even when diving with a heavily team-driven focus. Waiting for even the most attentive buddy, adding superfluous signals and steps...merely equates to more gas lost.

What other goal is there?

This is entirely about ingrained fundamental skills and nothing to do with the valve drill. If fundamental skills degrade when other tasks are performed (regardless of speed), then it indicates the diver has not sufficiently mastered autonomic control in the water.

Maintaining buoyancy, trim, situational awareness.... are prerequisites to technical diving. They should be a given factor before the student even learns valve drills.

I doubt there's any agency that'd put divers in a situation where they had insufficient gas to exit from air-sharing. I don't see why you'd laud GUE/UTD as being remarkable.... when it comes to such a fundamental and global concept as team gas management?


Because saving your own gas is actually secondary to maintaining a viable exit.That's why step 1 is to signal your buddy because they are the only way you will properly diagnose a left blowing right or other confusing situation. They are also your reserve gas. And they maintain contact with the line and exit orientation when your shutting down valves.

Blasting through a valve drill with no light discipline using both hands and not maintaining line contact is counterproductive. Going slower and methodically is much more productive - if I hustled but forgot things or screwed it up in training I would be told to slow down and get it right. You have plenty of gas to exit even if all of your gas would be lost (which it won't).
 
Because saving your own gas is actually secondary to maintaining a viable exit.

I don't see any link between a shut-down and maintaining a viable exit..... unless you're assuming weak foundational skills on behalf of the diver.

That's why step 1 is to signal your buddy because they are the only way you will properly diagnose a left blowing right or other confusing situation. They are also your reserve gas. And they maintain contact with the line and exit orientation when your shutting down valves.

Again...assumes no foundational skills and, therefore, requires buddy assistance.

> Diver should retain positional and situational awareness during the conduct of any protocol.

There are other ways to diagnose such failures. Otherwise, what'd you do in a restriction? Are GUE/UTD divers prohibited from passing restrictions (where buddy support may be temporarily unvavailable)?

Blasting through a valve drill with no light discipline using both hands and not maintaining line contact is counterproductive. Going slower and methodically is much more productive - if I hustled but forgot things or screwed it up in training I would be told to slow down and get it right.

Training differs from reality. At some point, training must reflect reality. You react how you train.

Learn protocols by breaking down skill elements. Perfect muscle memory through repetition and focus exact sequencing..... that's all fine.

But that is not the end point of training. Speed a sense of urgency and must be developed thereafter. It seems some agencies f ail in this regard and might actually instill some very (dangerously) complacent attitudes in student divers.

You have plenty of gas to exit even if all of your gas would be lost (which it won't).

You can guarantee that, in any situation, to any diver?

It's why no deaths ever occur from gas loss situations...?

Something to be blase about, huh?

It seems very complacent about gas loss scenarios...... and, I'd suggest, that complacency is the exact negative product of over-prescriptive, over-elaborate, non-time-critical training procedures....
 
The GUE valve manual comments that a tech 2 or cave 2 diver is expected to be able to perform a valve drill in about a minute. My instructor mentioned there comes a time when you can do it too slow, but it's not something to worry about at fundies or 1 level classes.
 
I don't see any link between a shut-down and maintaining a viable exit..... unless you're assuming weak foundational skills on behalf of the diver.

There's definitely a relationship. Are you kidding? Real life isn't some textbook situation. With a serious leak, there will almost for sure be silting. And it won't necessarily be a result of your flippers kicking the dirt.

Again...assumes no foundational skills and, therefore, requires buddy assistance.

It doesn't *require* a buddy, but a buddy is helpful. If you understand a manifold you can diagnose a problem, but a buddy can help make it quicker.

> Diver should retain positional and situational awareness during the conduct of any protocol.

Should.

There are other ways to diagnose such failures. Otherwise, what'd you do in a restriction? Are GUE/UTD divers prohibited from passing restrictions (where buddy support may be temporarily unvavailable)?.

Then you handle your ****. Duh. If you're diving in situations like that then you're a grownup diver and not a brand new fundies student who's *learning* to work a manifold. Come on.


Training differs from reality. At some point, training must reflect reality. You react how you train..

Yuh, and fundamentals class isn't the spot for that. Its to learn the (you guessed it!) FUNDAMENTALS!

Learn protocols by breaking down skill elements. Perfect muscle memory through repetition and focus exact sequencing..... that's all fine.

Yessssss.....

But that is not the end point of training. Speed a sense of urgency and must be developed thereafter. It seems some agencies f ail in this regard and might actually instill some very (dangerously) complacent attitudes in student divers.

Sense of urgency is taught in level 1 and level 2 classes.


You can guarantee that, in any situation, to any diver?
I don't think you can 'guarantee' anything in technical diving.

It's why no deaths ever occur from gas loss situations...?
Well, there really aren't many.

Something to be blase about, huh?

It seems very complacent about gas loss scenarios...... and, I'd suggest, that complacency is the exact negative product of over-prescriptive, over-elaborate, non-time-critical training procedures....

Its not about complacency, its about distributing priority over multiple facets (buddy, line, environment) instead if a singular "OMG I GOTTA SHUT DOWN MY GAS RIGHT NOW BOTH HANDS SCREW EVERYTHING!! GRAAAHHHHHH HALP IM GUNNA DROWN UNLESS I DO IT SUPERFAST" approach.

Having extra gas in the water takes one of these crazy situations and deletes unneeded stress. Its not life threatening simply because there are more resources with you in the form of redundancy in equipment and brains.
 
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