Do I need to get certified?

[Blackwood]

I've always wondered why there aren't wreck diving agencies and rigorous, standardized training courses like there are with cave diving. (I'm not talking about PADI wreck courses, I'm talking about real wreck diving courses.)

I think that wreck penetrations are far more dangerous and frightening than cave diving.

Look at the various cave diving agencies like GUE, NACD, NSS-CDS, PSAI. They all have standardized courses that emphasize gas management and guideline management. There is a progression of certifications (such as cavern > intro to cave > apprentice cave > full cave > stage diving > extended range, etc.). A retrospective look at cave diving deaths has shaped much of the cave diving community's approach to cave diving and certification.

But nothing like that exists in the wreck diving world. Granted, there are some instructors who can and do teach very rigorous wreck diving courses, but the entire process hasn't been standardized like in the cave diving world.

UTD Overhead Protocols -> UTD Wreck 1 -> UTD Wreck 2 (-> UTD Wreck 3)

The UTD structure is somewhat analogous.

Overhead Protocol focuses on line work, blind work (touch contact), etc. but in a non-overhead environment (similar to my understanding of cavern).

Then you move into an actual overhead, but with fairly strict limits: one 400 foot reel, or thirds less rock bottom, or 60CF penetration gas, or MDL, whichever is the constraining factor (similar to my understanding of Intro).

Then you move into deeper wrecks (deco) with longer penetrations (similar to my understanding of Full).

 

[HowardE]

UTD Overhead Protocols -> UTD Wreck 1 -> UTD Wreck 2 (-> UTD Wreck 3)

TDI also has a course "Advanced Wreck Diver".

Pre-requisites: 18 years of age, Advanced Open Water Diver, proof of at least 50 logged dives, certified as basic Wreck or Cavern diver.

 

[IDS_Bill]

Aside from Dave's tale of Parker Turner (which, sounds to be somewhat inconclusive), when has someone who did everything right, ended up dead?

I agree with the last part. Planning and training. As I said in this thread, having at least the skill set learned in more advanced diving training can prepare a diver for advanced wreck diving and entrance into the overhead environment. While this may not include a wreck diving certification, it is still training none the less.




I'm not a master of everything I survey, that's why I use my skills, and plan to dive safely. I don't count on LUCK to complete dives.

How many times has a ceiling collapse caused a diver death? I don't know. If it has... I'd wager that it's a microcosm, compared to the dumbass that doesn't have the skill set required to complete the dive... Makes a mistake, and ends up dead.

How many fatal ERRORS have divers made that have ultimately caused their death?

Certainly - there are times, where it's a hard nut to swallow. Especially when people know the guy, it may be hard to admit, "wow Joe Shmoe really screwed up. What a dumbass" - If it's your friend, colleague, mentor even, whatever... We don't want to accept that human error can get even the best of us.

I have a hard time swallowing that luck should play a factor in my dive. If I have an "unlucky event" occur on my dive (a blown hose, ripped BC, free flow, loss of primary light, etc), I hope that my skills, and my buddies skills are enough to cope with that event. If I miscalculated and died; It would be my fault for making the wrong choice. Maybe it's easier for people to believe that "oh poor Joe Shmoe, he just had some bad luck, he was dealt a bad hand" to justify their own set of bad diving skills (I'm NOT saying that you or anyone in here is a bad diver). There are tons of accomplished bad divers out there. Maybe they depend on luck, heck, I've seen plenty of lucky divers... I bet they even had luck written on their dive slate for their dive plan.

Okay there is obviously an issue with the word "Luck" and "Death". Would it make more sense if I wrote "Even a well planned and executed dive can have something go wrong that is beyond the diver's control" ????????

It's just like anything in life - when you drive to work, you can be safe and follow all traffic laws and still have a minivan run a red light and slam into you. If there were no evasive maneuvers that you could have made, that would fall under the category of luck.

I think the statement all comes down to reminding the diver that this is serious %$&# and not poking around at 30fsw looking at fish.

But I agree that training, planning and execution drastically reduce the possibility of something bad happening on a dive.

Remember the 7 P's - Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance!!!

Peace.....

 

[Blackwood]

TDI also has a course "Advanced Wreck Diver".

AndyNZ had already mentioned it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Aside from Dave's tale of Parker Turner (which, sounds to be somewhat inconclusive), when has someone who did everything right, ended up dead?

Events such as I describe are very rare, but they happen.

A friend of mine was diving off Yucab Wall in Cozumuel, and the group was beginning its safety stop. Suddenly everything started to swirl, and they were all at 100 feet. Just as suddenly, they were all at the surface. The DM headed for shore and took everyone to the chamber. Changing currents created some kind of a vortex that threw them around, with nothing they could do. They did not die--but that was luck.

A year before this same friend had two other friends disappear off Yucab Wall in Cozumel. Their bodies were never recovered.

Who knows? Maybe a similar event with not so much luck.

 

[gkndivebum]

[...]Look at the various cave diving agencies like GUE, NACD, NSS-CDS, PSAI. They all have standardized courses that emphasize gas management and guideline management. There is a progression of certifications (such as cavern > intro to cave > apprentice cave > full cave > stage diving > extended range, etc.). A retrospective look at cave diving deaths has shaped much of the cave diving community's approach to cave diving and certification.

But nothing like that exists in the wreck diving world. [...]

Actually, NAUI Tech has a course progression like this specific to wreck penetration. There are two levels - wreck penetration and technical wreck penetration - both of which emphasize line use, gas management, anti-silting propulsion techniques, lights-out drills, ... all of which would be very familiar to a cave diver. Other topics which are covered include considerations for open-ocean deco, hazards unique to wrecks (think collapse, entaglement, hatches slamming shut, tetanus, china fever...), shipwreck processes and maritime law, team skills, problem solving techniques and accident prevention and analysis.

I personally got a lot out of my courses...

 

[AndyNZ]

UTD Overhead Protocols -> UTD Wreck 1 -> UTD Wreck 2 (-> UTD Wreck 3)

The UTD structure is somewhat analogous.

I quite like this... particularly if "overhead protocols" is a pre-req for the Cave 1 course. Learn the basics that are common to both wreck and cave (and ice?) diving in one class, then learn how to apply them in the different environments.

 

[Blackwood]

I quite like this... particularly if "overhead protocols" is a pre-req for the Cave 1 course. Learn the basics that are common to both wreck and cave (and ice?) diving in one class, then learn how to apply them in the different environments.

During my Overhead Protocols course we discussed Wreck and Cave, but I don't remember mention of any Ice-specific techniques.

 

[Scott L]

Events such as I describe are very rare, but they happen.

A friend of mine was diving off Yucab Wall in Cozumuel, and the group was beginning its safety stop. Suddenly everything started to swirl, and they were all at 100 feet. Just as suddenly, they were all at the surface. The DM headed for shore and took everyone to the chamber. Changing currents created some kind of a vortex that threw them around, with nothing they could do. They did not die--but that was luck.

A year before this same friend had two other friends disappear off Yucab Wall in Cozumel. Their bodies were never recovered.

Who knows? Maybe a similar event with not so much luck.

Unless there are mermaid sightings on that dive I may pass.

 

[AndyNZ]

During my Overhead Protocols course we discussed Wreck and Cave, but I don't remember mention of any Ice-specific techniques.

I guess ice diving is perhaps a bit fringe?? But the way I see it is that this course could just cover the "generic" mechanics of line use, then in Wreck 1, Cave 1 (and Ice 1?) you then start applying the motor skills in the context of the specific environment.