Do I need to get certified?

[holeup]

maybe I misunderstood the post ( disagree with you both )
All I was saying is that there are things you can learn in class as well as things youll learn by experience. Both to me are invaluable tools

 

[Scott L]

maybe I misunderstood the post ( disagree with you both )
All I was saying is that there are things you can learn in class as well as things youll learn by experience. Both to me are invaluable tools

Let's see. You advocate training and experience. Let the feathers fly.

 

[Cave Diver]

maybe I misunderstood the post ( disagree with you both )

I read it as a tongue in cheek response to the "arguing" comment.

 

[Cave Diver]

Let the feathers fly.

This is an animal friendly discussion. Please leave the chickens in the Farm Animal Forum.

 

[Scott L]

This is an animal friendly discussion. Please leave the chickens in the Farm Animal Forum.

 

[TSandM]

The wreck class I took was about a lot more than just line technique and lights-out exits. We learned about identifying the wreck, positioning the boat, and shotting the wreck. We talked about gas planning for penetrations, and what to do if you lose the upline, and we practiced bag shooting. I think a well-taught class would be educational, even to someone with cave training.

 

[AndyNZ]

A lot of people hear the term "cave diving" and get chills. Just thinking of swimming into a dark, scary hole freaks them out. And if they swallow their fear and take the plunge, they find this waiting for them:

Can I turn this around on you?

Why shouldn't I go into a cave? After all, I'm wreck trained (to roughly equivalent of TDI Advance Wreck), can use and follow a line, do a lights out exit, not silt it up etc etc.

The fact is, that I do dive in caves... but ones where I know the limits of my experience. We have a few caves that are essentially a single passage in and out, or a very simple set of limited passageways. The cave I dive most often is called Taravana Cave, it's at a depth of about 30m and is around 200m to the back of the cave - it's a beautiful dive. The cave is essentially an h shape, two entrances that converge into a single passage. I've been to the back of the cave a number of times. Am I being unsafe? Am I diving outside the limits of my training (I don't even have a cavern cert)? Am I diving outside of the limits of my experience?

To a certain extent, the basic wreck and cave skills are the same - but the application is different. The awareness you have of the different environment really only comes from experience in that environment. An experienced cave diver could transition into advanced wreck penetration easily, but may not immediate have the "eye" for wreck specific hazards... spotting a structure unsafe due to rusting is different than spotting rocks that may collapse. Whilst I might be comfortable diving simple caves, I certainly wouldn't want to do anything that involved counting T's and jumps - way beyond my experience level.

Does a cave diver need certification to dive wrecks? Not at all. Would supervised experience (training or mentoring) help them develop "an eye"? Almost definitely.

 

[Doc Harry]

I've always wondered why there aren't wreck diving agencies and rigorous, standardized training courses like there are with cave diving. (I'm not talking about PADI wreck courses, I'm talking about real wreck diving courses.)

I think that wreck penetrations are far more dangerous and frightening than cave diving.

Look at the various cave diving agencies like GUE, NACD, NSS-CDS, PSAI. They all have standardized courses that emphasize gas management and guideline management. There is a progression of certifications (such as cavern > intro to cave > apprentice cave > full cave > stage diving > extended range, etc.). A retrospective look at cave diving deaths has shaped much of the cave diving community's approach to cave diving and certification.

But nothing like that exists in the wreck diving world. Granted, there are some instructors who can and do teach very rigorous wreck diving courses, but the entire process hasn't been standardized like in the cave diving world.

I find it very interesting.

Harry
NACD full cave
PSAI full cave

 

[Cave Diver]

Can I turn this around on you?

Some very good points and I've done similar things in reverse in regards to wrecks.

My choice in phrasing the question was mostly due to my observations that many people treat cave penetration as taboo, but don't think twice about wreck penetrations.

 

[HowardE]

Any time you are dealing with an environment that you cannot control and situations that can change without stimulus from the diver, luck is most definitely involved - especially if you factor in a reduced level of training or experience.

First page of the DSAT Technical book - "In technical diving, you can do everything right and still be injured or die" (Okay not a word for word quote but you get the point)

I try to rely on good planning and skills rather than luck. If that's the quote from the DSAT book... I'm glad I didn't take their course. Somehow, I have to believe that for every scuba death that isn't a health related issue (heart attack, stroke, what have you), someone screwed up. Please cite an example of someone doing everything right, but still ending up dead on a dive (other than a health problem, or maybe being eaten by a big shark)