Do I need to get certified?

[*dave*]

Please cite an example of someone doing everything right, but still ending up dead on a dive (other than a health problem, or maybe being eaten by a big shark)

Parker Turner

 

[AndyNZ]

But nothing like that exists in the wreck diving world. Granted, there are some instructors who can and do teach very rigorous wreck diving courses, but the entire process hasn't been standardized like in the cave diving world.

It does exist, but in a very sketchy way.

So TDI offers an Advanced Wreck, and there are TDI instructors that I know of who offer "Advanced Wreck+" as an extension to that as a distinctive specialty with AW as pre-req, but they are few and far between.

Wreck courses from the recreational agencies are fairly limited. We're just getting final approval of a course from PADI that bridges the gap from PADI Wreck to TDI Advanced Wreck. That gives a nice progression that roughly mirrors the Cave progressions.

GUE are also working on Wreck 1 and Wreck 2 (maybe even 3?) courses, but I wouldn't expect to see them anytime soon.

 

[AndyNZ]

My choice in phrasing the question was mostly due to my observations that many people treat cave penetration as taboo, but don't think twice about wreck penetrations.

I think this is basically marketing! There are so many stories of cave dives that have gone wrong, whereas agencies tend to push wreck diving as sexy - like you say.

If you take an average diver, their perception probably bears no resemblance to reality whatsoever. I've watched relatively new divers burrow through hatches in a wreck that they'd have no way to share air through on the way back with a short hose, kicking up the silt as they go completely oblivious of the fact that they've just gone beyond the light zone. It is essentially ignorance of the risks.

There are some contributing factors - most recreational wreck courses don't really teach line handling... there's lip service to the skill that's in the the outline, but no substance to back it up. Purpose sunk wrecks with the hatches cut off or welded open provide an easy means to get inside and get out easily - without bringing with it the required skills for "progressive penetration". So in the world of "to take a line or not", the courses aren't preparing divers for either.

On one of our wrecks, divers are regularly doing 100m penetrations at 30m down... all based on the assumption that in another 10m there will be a hole cut to enable them to get out.... many divers like this will cr@p themselves when they get in to a real wreck, and hopefully if they ever go into a cave...!

 

[IDS_Bill]

I try to rely on good planning and skills rather than luck. If that's the quote from the DSAT book... I'm glad I didn't take their course. Somehow, I have to believe that for every scuba death that isn't a health related issue (heart attack, stroke, what have you), someone screwed up. Please cite an example of someone doing everything right, but still ending up dead on a dive (other than a health problem, or maybe being eaten by a big shark)

I'm not even going to waste my time with this post. You're right genius - you know everything, can control everything and are the master of all you survey. You would never have a ceiling collapse, an equipment failure or anything else happen to you....

 

[Doc Harry]

I try to rely on good planning and skills rather than luck. If that's the quote from the DSAT book... I'm glad I didn't take their course. Somehow, I have to believe that for every scuba death that isn't a health related issue (heart attack, stroke, what have you), someone screwed up. Please cite an example of someone doing everything right, but still ending up dead on a dive (other than a health problem, or maybe being eaten by a big shark)

Actually, it's that kind of attitude that allows us to successfully pursue dangerous endeavors.

How can I jump into the seat of jet and get catapulted from an aircraft carrier if I believe I'm going to die no matter what I do? How can I penetrate a mile into a flooded cave if I believe I'm going to die no matter what I do?

We have to believe that planning and skills will keep us alive. Otherwise we wouldn't have summitted Everest or broken the sound barrier or flown to the Moon.

Sometimes it's difficult to discern between acts of God and human error. If a climbing team is wiped out by an avalanche, was that an act of god? Or did bad judgement lead them to be in a dangerous couloir at the time of day when avalanche danger is highest? In every accident you can argue about the root cause. But we've got to believe that we will survive because we've planned better and have better training than those who died before us.

 

[IDS_Bill]

Actually, it's that kind of attitude that allows us to successfully pursue dangerous endeavors.

How can I jump into the seat of jet and get catapulted from an aircraft carrier if I believe I'm going to die no matter what I do? How can I penetrate a mile into a flooded cave if I believe I'm going to die no matter what I do?

We have to believe that planning and skills will keep us alive. Otherwise we wouldn't have summitted Everest or broken the sound barrier or flown to the Moon.

You guys don't get it. This is not trying to scare you our of your Scooby Doo pj's, it just means pay attention, be wary and don't take stupid chances.

 

[Tigerman]

Being eaten by a big shark would be that factor of luck.. Bad luck in this case..

 

[AfterDark]

I have heard the same thing from Ice Divers. My question is what do I see under the ice I can't see without ice in summer?

Is what you see make it a blast or the thrill of the risk?

We play ice hockey upside under the ice try that in July

 

[HowardE]

Sometimes it's difficult to discern between acts of God and human error. If a climbing team is wiped out by an avalanche, was that an act of god? Or did bad judgement lead them to be in a dangerous couloir at the time of day when avalanche danger is highest? In every accident you can argue about the root cause. But we've got to believe that we will survive because we've planned better and have better training than those who died before us.

Aside from Dave's tale of Parker Turner (which, sounds to be somewhat inconclusive), when has someone who did everything right, ended up dead?

I agree with the last part. Planning and training. As I said in this thread, having at least the skill set learned in more advanced diving training can prepare a diver for advanced wreck diving and entrance into the overhead environment. While this may not include a wreck diving certification, it is still training none the less.

I'm not even going to waste my time with this post. You're right genius - you know everything, can control everything and are the master of all you survey. You would never have a ceiling collapse, an equipment failure or anything else happen to you....

I'm not a master of everything I survey, that's why I use my skills, and plan to dive safely. I don't count on LUCK to complete dives.

How many times has a ceiling collapse caused a diver death? I don't know. If it has... I'd wager that it's a microcosm, compared to the dumbass that doesn't have the skill set required to complete the dive... Makes a mistake, and ends up dead.

How many fatal ERRORS have divers made that have ultimately caused their death?

Certainly - there are times, where it's a hard nut to swallow. Especially when people know the guy, it may be hard to admit, "wow Joe Shmoe really screwed up. What a dumbass" - If it's your friend, colleague, mentor even, whatever... We don't want to accept that human error can get even the best of us.

I have a hard time swallowing that luck should play a factor in my dive. If I have an "unlucky event" occur on my dive (a blown hose, ripped BC, free flow, loss of primary light, etc), I hope that my skills, and my buddies skills are enough to cope with that event. If I miscalculated and died; It would be my fault for making the wrong choice. Maybe it's easier for people to believe that "oh poor Joe Shmoe, he just had some bad luck, he was dealt a bad hand" to justify their own set of bad diving skills (I'm NOT saying that you or anyone in here is a bad diver). There are tons of accomplished bad divers out there. Maybe they depend on luck, heck, I've seen plenty of lucky divers... I bet they even had luck written on their dive slate for their dive plan.

 

[Rhone Man]

Please cite an example of someone doing everything right, but still ending up dead on a dive

He didn't die in the end, but Don Shirley ran it pretty close despite doing everything right.