Do cave divers need wreck training?

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

the empress of Ireland ......it came close to taking me out ,

Id love to hear that one.

 

[TrimixToo]

For the edification of those of us who are neither: like what?

I am not yet a cave diver, but I will observe that, while silt is a hazard in both environments, I think you are a lot less likely to get silted out by a fish (yes, that did happen) or have your exit made riskier by marine life (by a hidden moray you could not see when you entered) in a cave. Also, I suspect that the generally more-complex topography of a wreck often makes lost line location "more interesting" and vastly increases the chances of inadvertent line traps for the unwary.

 

[kensuf]

For the edification of those of us who are neither: like what?

Sharp objects. Entanglement hazards that you can't cut through (wire, etc). Disorientation because of the orientation of the wreck (on it's side, etc). Collapse due to rust. Currents. Hazardous marine life (fire coral, urchins, and if you saw "The Deep" then you know about eels), etc. etc. etc.

While I think a cave diver is better prepared to go wreck diving than a wreck diver is prepared for cave diving, the two environments are unique and distinct and need the appropriate amount of respect and the appropriate training for both.

 

[kensuf]

I'll take a stab at this from what I've experienced (not making global generalizations as both caves and wrecks vary greatly...not to forget mine diving as well.)

Wrecks: many more dangly entanglement hazards. More spiky pokey things. Increased chance of collapse. Rapidly changing conditions with current and surge. Chemical hazards. Unpredictable surface return conditions (boat etc). Highly three dimensional navigation in a predictable pattern.

Surely any cave course would still have covered these hazards though? What skills are covered in advanced Wreck that are not covered in a cave course?

Wreck diving is something that I'd like to get into but I was thinking that I'd be better off doing a cave course and then using those skills in wrecks. I feel like the risk of getting an instructor who is just there to tick a box outweighs the risk of encountering something in a wreck that I haven't been trained for in a cave. My thinking is mostly based on this article.
Thoughts?

For the most part, caves are very static environments where as being in the big ocean is a very dynamic environment. We don't teach people how to deal with entanglement hazards that you can not cut through, collapses, "spiky pokey things", chemical hazards, unpredictable surface conditions, losing your boat, hazardous marine life, etc in cave classes because we do not encounter them. Those wreck divers are nuts.

I think cave training will benefit anyone that is interested in wreck diving, but if you want to be a wreck diver, you should take a wreck course.

 

[boulderjohn]

There is a difference that I am surprised has not been mentioned.

When you enter a cave and continue on through it, you always have a guideline to the surface. If one is not there, you put one there. In the usual cave dive, you return to the same entry point, taking out any temporary line you put in as you go.

In wreck diving, you frequently enter at one point and leave at another, and in many of those cases, no line is laid. Sometimes it is so obvious that you don't give it a second thought--think of cutting under a roof line in bright daylight for a couple seconds while circling the outside of a wreck--no one would lay line while doing that. Things will get more complicated with longer swim-throughs. At some point, you have to start questioning the safety of such a move--maybe I want to lay some line now.

I wrote to PADI about their frankly weak wreck course last year and made that point. I included a video of the first no-brainer I described above. I then described a dive I did on the Lowrance, a wreck at about 200 feet to sand. The divers that were with me on that wreck included some of the most well known names in cave diving. They were in and out of rooms throughout the dive, and not one of them laid any line once. I didn't think it was necessary--several openings were always visible, and the potential for a siltout was about nil.

But that is a judgment call, and deciding when it is safe to do a swim-through without laying line and when it is not safe should be an important part of wreck training.

 

[The Chairman]

A properly trained cave diver has all the skills needed to do wreck penetrations. The wreck diving specific hazards need to be covered for a cave diver conducting wreck dives.

Here is one of the few people who actively teaches both disciplines. I would trust him over any wreck instructor who doesn't teach cave, including Chatterton.

Those wreck divers are nuts.

Dude... you owe me a keyboard!

The goal of many wreck divers is to pillage the wreck. Cavers are focused on not disturbing a thing. I approach and dive wrecks as I would a cave: take only pictures and leave only bubbles. Other than the obvious swim throughs, I take a line with me when I penetrate either a cave or a wreck. Why not?

 

[Mark IV]

A properly trained cave diver has all the skills needed to do wreck penetrations. The wreck diving specific hazards need to be covered for a cave diver conducting wreck dives.

This was my thinking,as well. Obviously, the risks and challenges are not identical, and can even vary greatly, but they are also similar enough that there is considerable crossover, for either type diver, venturing into the other environment (assuming he's properly trained,equipped, and follows the essential rules).
This isn't to say a diver certified in either discipline shouldn't get training in the other. Though i tend to agree with the earlier post about cave divers being more thoroughly trained than many wreck divers, I feel it would be more important that a cave diver get wreck training, than a wreck diver getting cave-specific training.
In other words, I wouldn't be apprehensive about taking a experienced wreck diver on a cave dive, but were he to then take me on a serious wreck dive, I would be concerned that there's a lot I don't know, and would be picking the hell outa his brain !!

 

[tursiops]

This was my thinking,as well. Obviously, the risks and challenges are not identical, and can even vary greatly, but they are also similar enough that there is considerable crossover, for either type diver, venturing into the other environment (assuming he's properly trained,equipped, and follows the essential rules).
This isn't to say a diver certified in either discipline shouldn't get training in the other. Though i tend to agree with the earlier post about cave divers being more thoroughly trained than many wreck divers, I feel it would be more important that a cave diver get wreck training, than a wreck diver getting cave-specific training.
In other words, I wouldn't be apprehensive about taking a experienced wreck diver on a cave dive, but were he to then take me on a serious wreck dive, I would be concerned that there's a lot I don't know, and would be picking the hell outa his brain !!

Well, I've seem some very experienced wreck divers that had awful buoyancy skills, cared little for the environment, and thought laying a line was for wimps. Just sayin'.......there is a difference between the training and the reality of the culture.

 

[Mark IV]

Well, I've seem some very experienced wreck divers that had awful buoyancy skills, cared little for the environment, and thought laying a line was for wimps. Just sayin'.......there is a difference between the training and the reality of the culture.

Well yeah, I (and others) already stipilated a difference in the thoroughness of the training, and others have pointed out the differences in how they often treat the envirnoments they're in. No argument.
And as for wreck divers thinking line laying is for wimps, I addressed that with, "assuming he's properly trained, equipped, and follows the essential rules". If they don't follow their own training, i wouldn't expect them to follow the rules in another discipline (and therefore wouldn't want to dive with them).
And when I said I wouldn't be apprehensive about taking a experineced wreck diver on a cave dive, this obviously assumed he's a good wreck diver, that follows the rules (like buoyancy and the use of reels/lines).

 

[Dogbowl]

My only glimpse into the PNE wreck diving culture is from books such as Shadow Divers. It is interesting that their culture differs so significantly from the cave diving culture.