DMs working for free - can it be good for the customer?

[Gilldiver]

I'm really surprised the IRS doesn't see this as a simple method of tax-evasion. I work in the field of Professional HR services, and I would NEVER allow a client of mine to advertise or "hold-out" a job in which an exchange of goods or services occurs in lieu of a legal wage.

Someone is acting "in the performance of duty" [work] off the clock or without wages in exchange for "gifts, discounts, free training" [income] at a place of business [employer's direction]. Employers have obligations, especially where the "performance of duty is specified and expected".

Though a salient argument could be made about whether W2 vs 1099 would be most appropriate for a DM, I find it difficult to understand the slavery model.

We don't even want to think about an injury or death which happens during the performance of duty because the employee can actually make a claim against workers compensation. Failure to pay someone performing a duty does not protect an employer from such claims.

This causes me to have so many concerns, I can't even put well assembled post!

Most of these jobs are not in the US and are not under US Laws. Tis a whole other world out there. I can also tell you about expected "gifts" for various people that are expected in the Mid East and India.

 

[bracko]

I DM for "free" on courses and on the shop's partner boat.

in return i get gear very cheaply, free servicing for one set of regs p.a., one tank inspection/O2 clean p.a., free boat diving if the boat isn't full (ring on the arvo on the day before), free air, whenever i want it, when working or not.

to answer the question directly.

I don't think it degrades the service at all, infact i think the opposite... I do it because I WANT to do it, not because I'm short of money and need the relatively small pay that a DM would bring... The students are pretty surprised to hear that I'm there for free, but realistically I enjoy the teaching component, meeting people and helping them enjoy diving.

There's always an secondary motive, I'm there to also work on professional soft skills as well. Communication, leadership... etc is part of my position and skills i need to develop from being a manager to a leader, this gives a very different environment in which to meet people from all walks of life, learn to better read them, understand them and develop individual assessments on people in a group quickly.

do i think the shop is taking advantage... probably. but i like diving and they're a good bunch of people. One thing won't tolerate is being treated like the token DM by the instructor or the shop... sure there are some things the DM needs to do while the instructor is teaching, but lugging tanks, doing all the fills, checking equipment while the instructor is having a smoke'o isn't part of the deal, everone helps out equally.

i do it because it's easy, fun and casual and not political. when one of those change, I'll stop doing it.

 

[HIGHwing]

Most of these jobs are not in the US and are not under US Laws. Tis a whole other world out there. I can also tell you about expected "gifts" for various people that are expected in the Mid East and India.

I completely understand that may be the majority - but in South Florida - I think you'll find a lot of DMs gaining "experience".

 

[String]

Go to the Med and you'll find near 100% of diving staff in the summer season (DM and instructors) are working illegally and paid cash in hand. no tax, no legal status etc.

Egypt has a massive % doing that too and i suspect some parts of asia.

 

[TMHeimer]

I guess it's as good as a DMC acting as a DM being paid nothing, seems the customer is in the same spot.

Yes the DMC is in "training", but the DM now is in training to work under actual conditions and to realise the paying jobs go to Instructors.

As in any business, the customers needs are irrevelant if the business can't stay open.

Whether it is good for the customer depends on the DM regardless of other factors.

Bob

I disagree that a DMC acting as a non paid DM puts the customer in the same spot. DMCs are students with no actual status or authority beyond Rescue Diver. Any DM is a certified pro, whether being paid or not. On the other hand, I see no conflict in a DMC offering his services free in order to gain more experience (as long as there is a pro present). As a musician, I did this often in my teens prior to joining the union and considering myself a pro.


As far as working hungover, I'm sure this happens with both paid and unpaid DMs. Logic says it may happen less if someone fears losing a paying job, but I don't know.

Interesting question: What would happen if DMs united and nobody ever again worked for free.....Would shops then still employ DMs or would there simply be none....

 

[pnw_diver]

-dude, I can dive all I want in a Mediterranean island, and don't have to worry about paying rent... sweet!!!

This would be me, if I were much younger had far fewer responsibilities.

 

[pnw_diver]

Around here, ALL divemasters work for free

To be fair, around here ("here" being loosely defined so that you and I are both "here", even though we're 180 or so miles apart), divemasters aren't really the same as divemasters in resort locations. It's my impression that around here, DM training is a stepping-stone to instructor or a DM job overseas, or is taken to enhance one's dive and leadership skills. I don't think very many people sign up for DM training thinking they're going to be a Puget Sound dive tour guide.

I don't think this dive op will get (or is trying to get) people whose intent is to make a life-long profession of instruction or dive shop management. They'll get young people for whom diving for free sounds like a blast, and who don't mind working evening shifts at a bar to buy food. They'll spend a summer like that, and then go back to school with a bunch of neat (or maybe not so neat) memories to enjoy ten years hence, when they're talking to their colleagues in the insurance company.

I suspect a fair number of dive guides I've been in the water with in various places weren't a whole lot different from that.

I've talked to a few divemasters in tropical locations about this very subject, and that's my suspicion too. The last DM I had this conversation with didn't think of his on-boat and in-water duties to be "work". (Lugging tanks and washing gear is another story). Even though he made very little money + tips, he considered himself rich because he was doing exactly what he wanted to do.

 

[bracko]

Interesting question: What would happen if DMs united and nobody ever again worked for free.....Would shops then still employ DMs or would there simply be none....

I would generally say that DM's would be seldem used. Is there any legal requirement stopping an advanced diver tour guiding divers at holiday destinations? [that's an actual question... i can't see that there is, as anyone but a DM or instructor wouldn't be able to accept an instabuddy or 2 when you rock up to a local dive site..]

and for courses, DM's aren't necessary but a huge help... so instead of taking 2 hours in the water it'd just take 3 or 4. you might find instructors demanding higher wages then.

at the end of the day diving is something that people are more than willing to do for free, so even if the majority of DM's unionised there'd be someone, somewhere willing to do it for free.

additionally, OP: Remuneration is one of the lowest forms of motivation for a worker.

 

[DevonDiver]

I would generally say that DM's would be seldem used. Is there any legal requirement stopping an advanced diver tour guiding divers at holiday destinations?

Unless local/national laws require it.... no.

There is a subtle difference in the wording 'dive master' and 'dive guide'. A dive 'guide' doesn't have to have any particular level of certification or training.

I make a point of asking potential dive centres about the status/qualification of their 'dive guides'. If they aren't qualified DMs, then I will avoid them. Personally, I want that rescue capacity available.

It's just an example of cutting costs, at the customers' expense... and it's quite common in some areas.

 

[String]

Is there any legal requirement stopping an advanced diver tour guiding divers at holiday destinations?

There's (generally) no legal requirement to be a qualified diver at all to go diving other than local laws.

Egypt you MUST have a guide in-water or on-site. Other places maybe equally as restrictive and backward but generally no.

And as was said above a dive master is not the same thing as a dive guide. A guide in Egypt for example is a DM or equivalent or above that has sat an insulting simple exam (that even day 2 OW students have passed) and paid some money to the government front company for accreditation.