Diving to 130 ft ?

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I don't disagree that a certain level of fitness is necessary ... what I am saying is that you simply cannot tell who the safest diver is by looking at him. There's too many other variables. And fitness doesn't always equate to BMI.

There's a military base near my home ... and I've dived with quite a few soldiers who've lived there over the years. Despite their generally high levels of fitness, not all of them have made good dive buddies. And, in fact, quite a few overweight divers I know make better ones.

You need to consider all the factors ... not just those you can see when you look at somebody ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
This is where I digress from most others because it's a statement that is true only depending on the circumstances. A nice shallow dive with no currents in warm water with yada - yada - yada all the perfectly serene circumstances is what divers think of when they say diving isn't a physically challenging activity.

Then as soon as we begin talking about the opposite dive minus every serene condition or for instance the recent micro gale that blew through the divers in Cozumel while I was there and the statement is completely false.

But the diving itself during that "micro gale" (it looked pretty macro to me) still had nice, warm, serene conditions under water throughout the storm. Staying on the surface after the divve and getting on the boat was a different story.

DAN preaches the exact opposite of this mentality and collects data that has determined that physical condition plays a very important role in avoiding dive related injuries. However it's overlooked by most of the dive community and we instead always focus on dive numbers to determine what a diver can or can't do when looking at challenging dives.

This is correct, and it goes into sound decision making and knowing your limits. The latest DAN dive fatality report has several cases in which divers drowned on the surface in rough conditions. You need to exercise sound judgment in these cases, but, sadly, many people don't understand their own limits until they have surpassed them.

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Personally, (and I emphasize personally) when it comes to the relative degree of fitness required for diving, I think the diver's own personal safety is only part of the equation. I want to know that my dive buddy can help me in an emergency even if it means a prolonged surface swim to a boat or shore and that he can get me out of the water and sustain a lengthy period of CPR (if necessary) without fear of early fatigue. So while I agree that the actual mechanism of diving does not require a high degree of fitness (assuming proper trim and bouyancy) I think it is reckless to not maintain a decent level of cardiovascular fitness.

I don't want to invite flaming but it is a factor in who I choose as dive buddies.

That is sound thinking. But that is where "team resources" comes into play. In the Cozumel micro gale situation described above, one member of our group had a handicapping condition that meant he required assistance removing his gear, including his fins, before he could climb the ladder to get on the boat. Fortunately, we were indeed a group with a professional divemaster. The DM got his equipment off despite the storm, and I got his fins, The boat crew helped him the rest of the way. We had several other very able-bodied divers who could have done the same.

Now, if it were just the two of us diving in those conditions, I would not have done the dive. While I could have helped him in case of trouble like that , but he could not have helped me or himself. With the team resources we had, it was not really a problem.

It all comes down to using good judgment.
 
I don't disagree that a certain level of fitness is necessary ... what I am saying is that you simply cannot tell who the safest diver is by looking at him. There's too many other variables. And fitness doesn't always equate to BMI.

That is true.

But.... I can draw valid conclusions and predictions if looking at two divers with identical experience levels and opposite fitness levels. The same dive may have very different ramifications for these different divers. Experience being equal will not be an equalizing factor.

There is below average, average and above average in all factors - from experience to equipment to fitness that I just think should be considered when commenting on the riskiness of a dive and the following OH MY's! and head shaking that goes on in scubaboard.com all the time.

NWGratefulDiver - I appreaciate your well thought out and insightful replies. I am replying in general to the thoughts you are creating for me, and not arguing against your points. :wink:
 
But the diving itself during that "micro gale" (it looked pretty macro to me) still had nice, warm, serene conditions under water throughout the storm. Staying on the surface after the divve and getting on the boat was a different story.

Yep. To me getting on the boat and staying on the surface is all part of 'diving'.

It's like climbing mount Everest. Getting to the top means you're only 1/2 way there.
 
That is true.

But.... I can draw valid conclusions and predictions if looking at two divers with identical experience levels and opposite fitness levels. The same dive may have very different ramifications for these different divers. Experience being equal will not be an equalizing factor.
The reality is that identical experience levels are a myth (although they often make for good internet discussion) because there is no meaningful metric by which to measure them.

Two divers may have the same number of dives, and have taken the same training. But do they learn at the same rate? Did they both come out of the class with the same level of understanding the class curriculum? Do they have equal propensity to apply what they learned? Or equal attitudes about how a dive should be planned and conducted?

As an instructor, I have rarely ... if ever ... seen two divers go through a class and come out with either identical ability or experience ... if one measure experience by a person's ability to apply what they know in a practical sense.

One can never really tell what a diver's ability may be until you dive with them. And I have met many divers who, at 50 dives, would make a better, safer dive buddy than other divers who have many more dives than that.

NWGratefulDiver - I appreaciate your well thought out and insightful replies. I am replying in general to the thoughts you are creating for me, and not arguing against your points. :wink:
And I can appreciate that as well ... the best discussions are those that provide multiple points of view in a manner as to make people think and make up their own mind what works best for them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I think a distinction needs to be made between danger and risk ... they are not the same thing. Diving isn't a dangerous activity ... but it is a risky activity.The reason we emphasize proper training and experience is to learn what those risks are, and how to plan and conduct our dives in such a way as to reduce them (or avoid them altogether) and how to deal with them should they occur. In that respect there are a series of "rules" in place which, if followed, reduces the risks to almost negligible levels. This is especially true at the levels that most casual divers participate. But even in the more challenging environments that attract a lot of more experienced divers (e.g. deep dives, wrecks, caves, etc) if one gets the training and follows the rules, the risks are less than we face every time we get on a freeway ... because unlike the freeway, we are each in complete control of our own safety.

For these reasons, I really don't like the "you're gonna die" type commentary when we read about someone doing a dive we wouldn't, personally, choose to do ... because in order to understand whether that person is truly exposing themselves to danger we need to understand the nature of the risks imposed by the dive, and how prepared the diver really is to deal with them.


Unlike mountaineering, scuba diving isn't a particularly physically challenging activity ... I don't, personally, view it as a sport but that's a discussion for another thread. The most physical part of diving occurs out of the water, when you don and have to conduct yourself while wearing all that heavy gear. Once in the water, if properly weighted, there is little physical activity required. And what physical activity IS required underwater can be mitigated with technique. As an analogy, many years ago I was a competitive weightlifter. There were a lot of people working out in our gym who couldn't lift nearly as much as I could, despite the fact that they were bigger and stronger than me. What they lacked was proper technique. Just so in diving. A diver can make up for a lot of lack of physical fitness by learning the proper technique ... which involves good trim, an efficient equipment configuration, and reasonable propulsion techniques.

There are, in fact, many fitness threads on ScubaBoard. They usually degenerate into arguments over the viewpoints held by some that fat people aren't fit to dive. My perspective on that (as a fat person) is that (a) diving requires a moderate level of fitness, but by no means does one have to be a gym rat, (b) conditioning matters more than body shape or weight, and (c) good technique matters more than either (a) or (b). It also helps, before doing more challenging dives, to acquire adequate skills and knowledge to know how to reduce the potential for getting into a situation that's going to require a lot of physical exertion. Most resort divers, for example, are on "tourist" dives that don't, and won't, require a high level of physical fitness. It's the inexperienced or out-of-shape diver who attempts a dive they're not adequately trained, experienced, or prepared for who will find themselves in a bad way ... and perhaps in need of assistance because they tried "writing a check that their body couldn't cash". What got those people in trouble wasn't their lack of fitness so much as it was not recognizing and staying within their limitations.

For the new diver, there's a saying ... you don't know what you don't know. What it means is that most of us, at some level, consider ourselves more skilled than we actually are. We choose a dive because someone else said it was OK ... without really evaluating whether or not we've got the tools to accept the risks that come with that dive. Most times it turns out OK ... but the good diver, at any level, doesn't plan for everything going right. The proper way to plan a dive is to ask yourself "what can go wrong" and then formulate a dive plan based on "what am I prepared to deal with if something should go wrong at the worst possible time".

With regard to Devil's Throat ... when I was in Cozumel I opted not to do it. At the time I had over 1,700 dives, and was diving steel 120's. I opted not to do it because the only available breathing gas was air ... and my personal threshold for narcosis, based on my experience, finds that depth unacceptable. So I chose to dive elsewhere.

Your mileage may vary ... we're all individuals, and ultimately responsible for our own safety. The key thing is to be honest with yourself about the risks of the dive and your ability ... physically and otherwise ... to keep yourself within a risk limit that you find acceptable.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well said Bob! This may be one of the best posts ever on ScubaBoard!

By the way, if you were implying you are fat, you are not. Unless you have gained an awful lot of weight since I met you! :D
 
I think fit is not the whole picture as well. To use Bob as example (if I may). He has a few extra pounds (not fat) but his SAC rate is lower than mine and lower than many people.

He has a shorter, stockier build and therefore has muscular strength...no one is going to have to deal with his gear for him due to physical limitations and from seeing him lug gear around apparently he has a better back than I do as well.

Comments were made about divers being OK in calm warm water but it being a problem in cold, limited viz, current intensive waters. I've seen Bob crawl back into a boat which required taking gear off in the water and then having to pull a set of doubles up after him.

Bob's no superman. He is just an example of someone who has a few extra pounds and isn't likely to have problems in diving because of it. I'm all for fitness but in many cases it's missing the point in diving because reasonable fitness for diving is not something that you can tell just by looking at someone unless they are obese or some very obvious lack of ability is shown.

And apparently from reading the posts peoples ability to function at 130 on air varies greatly although I still think at that depth it has more to do with expectations and prior experience on air at that depth.
 
Here in Colorado mountaineering is a 'dangerous' sport but because of the fitness level required to participate it automatically 'self-limiting' in that it makes those that do participate have a base level of cardio fitness and eliminates for instance - obese people from involvement, so the dangers are self-moderated by creating a base line fitness level for participants.

In the world of mountaineering, general cardio fitness plays a role. But so does technique, physiology and judgement. There are objective hazards and subjective hazards. While speed can help mitigate some of the objective hazards (why climbers hustles through the Khumbu ice fall on Everest) more important is identifying and evaluating that objective hazard. Only then can a comprehensive risk mitigation strategy be employed.

Do you climb this route only in the middle of the night when it is frozen solid (even knowing that creates other risks)? What gear do you take (how much food/fuel, protection, shelter, etc.)? What is your plan?

Even then, for example, K2 has a super high degree of objective dangers (very qualified and super fit climbers yet only 302 ascents with 77 fatalities). There are dives like that as well.

You are going on a multi-pitch big wall climb (5.8). Would you take a person who has climbed in a gym everyday for the last five years and can do a 5.12? Or someone who has climbed every summer weekend for the last two years -- all on similar rock and led single pitch (to a 5.7) climbs. And seconded a 5.10b?

In the end, safe diving and safe climbing is about decision making. Fitness is a good thing -- in general, in climbing and in diving. But I often see newer divers (not saying you are in or out of this category) thinking of fitness as something that gives them a much bigger leg up than it really does (sort of teen drivers and their super quick reflexes). I have encountered several divers over the years who have done some very unsafe things, found themself in a pickle, and gotten lucky. All were pretty fit. Being more fit would have helped none of them. Better decision making would have avoided 100% of the problems.
 
There is below average, average and above average in all factors - from experience to equipment to fitness that I just think should be considered when commenting on the riskiness of a dive and the following OH MY's! and head shaking that goes on in scubaboard.com all the time.

I very much agree.

The problem occurs in the real world. I tend do dive with my brother or solo. That means I know all three factors you reference (and others) very well.

But with an insta-buddy it is much harder. Equipment that is older may be 100% maintained and be very solid. Newer equipment might have never seen a rinse tank and might be in poor condition. Experience is a very complicated thing to judge for some of the reasons Grateful diver has posted. Fitness can also be difficult (BMI is not a measure of fitness) to judge.

Of course, there are things to look for. Can they assemble and don their kit properly? Do they seem super anxious? Do they seem to be trying too hard to convince me thay are the best diver ever? Does it look like their gear has been reasonably cared for? Do they get winded as they kit up?
 
I thought I would follow up to this thread I started.

We got to do the devil's throat dive. I made a kind of crappy video, but it's mostly in real time so it is interesting in that regard.

Punta Sur - Devil's throat Nov 2009

My take on the dive- it ended up being well within our abilities. Nothing too crazy. I fully understand how most people's reaction after having done the dive ends up being that they would go on it again if they had to, but probably would not seek doing it again unless they have to.

The video will makes it appear darker then it was.

Good video IMO, thanks for sharing...Now you can say 'been there done that', lol....Like that little dive esp when you end up way down Columbia on a 75 min dive.....One time, 6 spotted eagle rays came underneath us heading over the wall @ the end of that dive....
 
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