Diving Performance - Beyond Drag (article Series And Discussion)

[REVAN]

My tank was low and needed to be refilled, so I attempted to sprint across the pool as fast as I could just to see what I'd get. I measured 2.9 knots in my streamlined kit. The regulator was in a full purge the whole time, so it isn't practical speed as the gear is currently configured.

It's not a waste of air if I wasn't going to use it anyway.

 

[urbaneve71]

Coming from a competition swimmers point of view, I will have to point out that your comment regarding.. "Things have not improved much in the past 50 years regarding swimming performance," is arguably wrong. Swimming performance has most definitely improved in the past 50 years.

I know in the few short years of my times being posted at the national and triple A state level were soon beat by improved swimmers. Now if you are comparing a pool to open waters - I too will compare that for you... I was a lifeguard and our beaches opened up at Memorial Day, so we did training. And our lifeguards improved over the years and so did the training. I was a long distance competition swimmer, so it was not uncommon for me to swim 5 miles a day for practice. Lake Mich is considered brown water oceans and it can be flat one minute and then 7ft waves and rip currents the next.

Im not sure what research you did to prove your statement that swimming has not improved over the past half century, but I can post statistics showing where swimmers have most assuredly improved if you need me to.

Not to mention that the difference in energy and effort it takes to do a regular kick and a fly kick. Also I need to bring up the fact that if a diver if using said fly kick near the bottom or near a reef the effects can be devastating in the way of 0 vis and damage to the reef or corals. (Hopefully said diver is smarter than that.)

I also have not read all 29 pages of comments here nor the pages you have posted. I am curious to read your other sections.

 

[undrwater]

Also I need to bring up the fact that if a diver if using said fly kick near the bottom or near a reef the effects can be devastating in the way of 0 vis and damage to the reef or corals. (Hopefully said diver is smarter than that.)

I tried to look on youtube for a "fly kick", but all the results were "butterfly". Is that what you are talking about, or is a fly kick something quite different? @REVAN was mentioning the "reverse dolphin" as a possible non-silting kick that could be performed near a silty bottom (or top?). I can't find that on youtube either (there are some videos of it, but I'd describe them as "upside down dolphin kick"" which is of limited use in scuba).

 

[urbaneve71]

yes -- fly kick is butterfly or dolphin kick

 

[ronscuba]

I know in general athletes are stronger and faster in all sports. But technology, research, sharing of knowledge is also a part of it because athletes are also better trained and more efficient.

Curious about improvements in swimming performance. Have there been changes or improvements in swim and kick technique ?

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I think Revan was talking about underwater swimming for scuba divers, not competitive swimming or Finswimming. Those two sports have definitely improver over the years. But sport divers of today, for the most part, are slower and less efficient in their underwater swimming technique than the divers of yesterday (1950s through 1970s). And this is actually now taught, because of the influence of technical divers and technical instructors. When I see divers in open,blue water using the modified frog kick, I cringe.

SeaRat

 

[urbaneve71]

I think Revan was talking about underwater swimming for scuba divers, not competitive swimming or Finswimming. Those two sports have definitely improved over the years. But sport divers of today, for the most part, are slower and less efficient in their underwater swimming technique than the divers of yesterday (1950s through 1970s). And this is actually now taught, because of the influence of technical divers and technical instructors. When I see divers in open,blue water using the modified frog kick, I cringe.SeaRat

That is one thing I was wanting to be cleared up without having to read 29 pages LOL. And I do agree the sport divers are slower today than what I have seen since 2002. While I am not a tech diver and that is not something I want to be. I was just wondering because his statement was very general. Luckily, I do not see too many divers doing the frog kick, but if I did, I would have to agree with you about cringing.

I know in general athletes are stronger and faster in all sports. But technology, research, sharing of knowledge is also a part of it because athletes are also better trained and more efficient.

Curious about improvements in swimming performance. Have there been changes or improvements in swim and kick technique ?

All the time. I remember going to various swim camps throughout my "swim career" so to say and being video taped and critiqued on my stoke in order to improve. Like in my case, as a long distance swimmer, I use a different kick than a short distance swimmer in order to elongate my stroke and conserve energy and help prevent muscle cramping.

There are several types of tactile and kinesthetic exercises to help improve your "pull" in the water. They have discovered a good strong core is helpful to swimmers. Over the years even things like shaving your legs helps reduce drag. Different hand configurations and the best place to get the best down draft or pull ... the list can go on.

All these things have been studied over the years to help improve times - hence that is how olpymic records keep getting broken all the time.
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With all that, it would be nice to incorporate a stronger sense of swim capabilities for divers to help reduce fatigue for them. I know that as an experienced swimmer that helped me immensely in the water as a new diver. And that was 10 years after I quit swimming altogether. Most of the divers I checked out with - and we had a large group of 30 - ranging from OW to assistant instructors, many of them complained of fatigue at the end of the day.

 

[undrwater]

There are many non-tech reasons to use a frog kick in open water, and there is no reason to cringe (unless the person is your student and is learning kick styles from you!). If you approach me and share how I might be more efficient with my kick, I would be eternally grateful! As it stands, no one has seen fit to correct ANY of my poor kick shapes.

That said, I went from splits (Apollo Bio Fin) to a paddle (Hollis F1) because I wanted more control for using a camera. I could flutter over a silty bottom all day long with the BioFin, but create a silt storm fluttering with the F1's. The only other kick I could do that didn't silt was the frog. Additionally, the BioFin wouldn't allow me to back kick. The paddle does. So...I will frog kick in open water because it's easier than flutter kicking. I'll even do a modified frog if I want to move a very short distance.

If ever I have a chance to try fins that allow for easy, non-silting kicks (forward, backward, turn), that produce a decent amount of propulsion, and are within my budget, I will likely purchase them.

 

[urbaneve71]

I could see a use for the frog kick on some occasions, say on the bottom if it silty or in a wreck with same conds. but just right out in the open water, nah.... I dont any use for it, you would get more power out of a dolphin kick - fly kick but not a frog kick - unless your drift diving.

Now, I use split fins and I love them but that is what works for me. Other divers may feel different.

If ever I have a chance to try fins that allow for easy, non-silting kicks (forward, backward, turn), that produce a decent amount of propulsion, and are within my budget, I will likely purchase them.

That is the key for me too -- making it affordable

 

[undrwater]

I can't make a dolphin kick work for me using the F1's (though I'd love to learn). Flutter kicking with the F1's feels really uncomfortable for me. That leaves me with the cringe-worthy frog kick...even when hovering way above the bottom. It gets me where I need to go at the speed I like.

I am interested in this thread, though, because I know there have been times when I would have liked a good burst of speed to get me "over there" quickly. I'm also interested in increasing my efficiency through reducing drag.