Ha! That's probably the real reason everyone is taught that they need a BC. If they are taught without a BC, the instructors may actually have to teach things like how get the weights right, or how to swim. That would be an unreasonable expectation from a diving class. With the BC it's as easy as overweight, dump air to go down, add air to go up; no need to swim, or have a decent kick technique, etc...
Diving Performance - Beyond Drag (article Series And Discussion)
- Thread starter REVAN
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caseybird
Contributor
Ok, at this point reality has departed from this discussion. Minimal weight? Sure. No weights? C'mon. Also; no octopus, no wetsuits over 3 mil, heaven forbid a dry suit, no pony's. No boat? Really? People dive with this gear because they need it for the dives they do. Telling everyone they're poorly trained or brainwashed by the sinister agency is just ridiculous and arrogant.
Tell you what, once I decide to confine my dives to a race in a 6' deep pool, I'll do it your way.
Tell you what, once I decide to confine my dives to a race in a 6' deep pool, I'll do it your way.
Probably less than your arms. Move them to your sides instead of crossing them in front of you. In my kit, I actually made handles down there I can grab to hold my arms back in streamline pose. You don't see it being used on most of the video because I'm operating the camera rig, but if I'm not doing anything better with my hands, I grab those handles. A slight amount of finger pressure holds my arms straight and the elbows in for maximum streamlining with minimum effort.
I think it is a good idea. You may want to look to see if you can find some way to make something similar for your kit. It doesn't take much. A small strap with a finger loophole in the right place could do the trick.
It's not about no weights or even minimal weights, it's about using the right weights. People who go to Key Largo and dive the Duane in a drysuit; why? I think a wetsuit is a better choice for me on that dive. If you need a drysuit, use a drysuit. If you also want minimum impact on swimming performance, use a drysuit with a stretch fit overlayer. No one is saying to not use gear that you need. The discussion is about making informed decisions about what gear you need with some level of consideration toward swimming performance.
Do you need to use that octo? On 'this dive', will buddy breathing or a controlled free ascent be acceptable alternatives? Is the pony bottle necessary? The answers to these questions will depend on how deep you are diving, how efficient you are swimming, who you are diving with and possibly where you are diving can be an impacting factor. Personally, I have been diving for about 30 years, and outside of training exercises, I have never actually "needed" to use an octo.
There were many dives where the pony was a necessary contingent for risk mitigation. If I'm going below 90 ft, I either want a pony bottle, or a dive buddy that I keep close. I generally don't dive below 75 or 80 feet, so it usually isn't even an issue for me. I've been doing this long enough that there is no romance left with depth for me. I've been to 210ft when I was still tech diving back in the 90s and I've been to 210ft freediving. I didn't see anything special either time. If I have a good reason to dive deep, then the gear configuration changes to meet the requirements of the dive. If no reason to go deep, then KISS.
And what's your big surprise with "No boat"? Have you heard of shore diving (aka - beach diving)?
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caseybird
Contributor
I really didn't want to get into this discussion, however:
Sea-Ledford brought up the no weight thing, not me.
To the rest of your points, there are some subsets of dives and divers that can dispense with some or part of the standard gear. For example, a spear doing shallow dives with minimal exposure protection can easily dispense with a BCD or octo. I get it, really.
However, to all the points you raised in your last post, some combination of dry suit, octo, pony, etc. are gear that divers identify as minimal gear for the diving they're doing. Telling people they're doing it wrong because they use this gear is not a paradigm change, it is simple arrogance.
The Duane? Try the Algol off New Jersey without a BCD or pony or doubles. Even your choice of dry suit is inappropriate for an environment with a number of very hazardous edges.
Yeah, I've heard of shore diving (nice snark) and I guarantee you're not diving the Duane from shore. You need the tools you need to do the dive. No amount of hand waving about "civilians" and "normalization of deviance" is going to change that.
BTW, I have a GUE book I picked up in around 2002. They spend a good deal of the manual discussing a streamlined rig and bringing only the gear necessary for the dive. The low drag configurations you're discussing are not new.
Hey, the low drag, mono fin design you're advocating is great if you're swimming with dolphins. Go for it, and I'll "like" the videos on SB. If that works to get you that diving experience, go for it. However, in my photography, I find it really useful to do back kicks and helicopter turns, without using my "pectorals" (hands, for the rest of us). Please don't tell me I don't need that ability, or the weights I use are there because my skills are poor.
Best,
Caseybird
Sea-Ledford brought up the no weight thing, not me.
To the rest of your points, there are some subsets of dives and divers that can dispense with some or part of the standard gear. For example, a spear doing shallow dives with minimal exposure protection can easily dispense with a BCD or octo. I get it, really.
However, to all the points you raised in your last post, some combination of dry suit, octo, pony, etc. are gear that divers identify as minimal gear for the diving they're doing. Telling people they're doing it wrong because they use this gear is not a paradigm change, it is simple arrogance.
The Duane? Try the Algol off New Jersey without a BCD or pony or doubles. Even your choice of dry suit is inappropriate for an environment with a number of very hazardous edges.
Yeah, I've heard of shore diving (nice snark) and I guarantee you're not diving the Duane from shore. You need the tools you need to do the dive. No amount of hand waving about "civilians" and "normalization of deviance" is going to change that.
BTW, I have a GUE book I picked up in around 2002. They spend a good deal of the manual discussing a streamlined rig and bringing only the gear necessary for the dive. The low drag configurations you're discussing are not new.
Hey, the low drag, mono fin design you're advocating is great if you're swimming with dolphins. Go for it, and I'll "like" the videos on SB. If that works to get you that diving experience, go for it. However, in my photography, I find it really useful to do back kicks and helicopter turns, without using my "pectorals" (hands, for the rest of us). Please don't tell me I don't need that ability, or the weights I use are there because my skills are poor.
Best,
Caseybird
Revan and John C. Ratliff, what are your thoughts on kick technique and fin stiffness ?
I am trying to keep my legs straighter, with less knee bend and toes pointed throughout. Not so easy on the up kick. Should I keep my kicks narrow and quick, medium width ?
What about fin stiffness ? My fins are very soft. I know freedivers like a soft blade. Would a slightly stiffer fin be good for scuba since air consumption is not as big a priority ?
I am trying to keep my legs straighter, with less knee bend and toes pointed throughout. Not so easy on the up kick. Should I keep my kicks narrow and quick, medium width ?
What about fin stiffness ? My fins are very soft. I know freedivers like a soft blade. Would a slightly stiffer fin be good for scuba since air consumption is not as big a priority ?
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
I think where this thread ended up is to try and make a point that scuba in general to many people has become way to mechanical and gear reliant way beyond what is necessary. Yeah scuba will always be mechanical in the sense of the tank, regulator, hoses, etc., that is the inevitable mechanical component and always will be, but the rest has incrementally crept in to become what is known today as "mandatory equipment", and to the minimalists this is simply not true.
I'll bet almost 100% of new open water students have no idea of anything beyond what the training facility outfits them in to do their dive training. This would include a modern BCD that is generally very large and cumersome and way over padded, a large amount of weight placed into the integrated pockets of the BC, hoses sticking out everywhere that can cause drag and also catch on things, large consoles that are difficult to stow in a fashion that keeps them close to the body, fins that may or may not be optimal high propulsion efficient designs, ankle weights, a lot of times a very large snorkel that is mandated by some agencies, and in cold water I see poor tank material choices such as using AL tanks since they require more lead to sink making the diver really heavy out of the water.
These students may never realize that there is a much simpler and more streamlined way to dive without half that crap. It's actually safer and more enjoyable not to be encumbered by all the stuff that's supposed to be there to make our diving "safer".
Minimalism is a moving target and can mean many things in many different dive scenarios.
However in the most excessive senarios I have witnessed, putting on doubles, stage bottles, can lights, long boses, dry suits, a buddy, and being towed around by a scooter on a 50' shore dive just because the certain "school" of training says that all that gear must be used on every dive for training purposes and to develop "muscle memory" is kind of the jist of what the thread is chipping away at; to the degree that some diving has gotten kind of rediculous but it may also just be a scubaboard thing since I see almost none of this anymore in the actual reality of Northern California diving. Just like I hear all kinds of stuff about sidemount but have never actually seen one in person. So therefore in my world it continues to remain a myth.
Also the casual recreational diver that likes diving but may not like all the gear they have to purchase, don, and also maintain just to do simple 40' reef dives in warm water. The excess gear can be a real turn off to people, I actually know a few in my neck of the woods that gave up scuba for freediving simply because they didn't know there was a better and simpler way to scuba dive.
I think this thread along with other similar threads in the past have done a good job at exposing hungry minds to think outside of the box and realize there are alternatives to the current industry standard.
To those that are gear heads and love to carry more more more, more power to you carry on, the dive shops love you.
To those that would like to find ways to streamline and reduce their gear to become more efficient in the water read on.
I'll bet almost 100% of new open water students have no idea of anything beyond what the training facility outfits them in to do their dive training. This would include a modern BCD that is generally very large and cumersome and way over padded, a large amount of weight placed into the integrated pockets of the BC, hoses sticking out everywhere that can cause drag and also catch on things, large consoles that are difficult to stow in a fashion that keeps them close to the body, fins that may or may not be optimal high propulsion efficient designs, ankle weights, a lot of times a very large snorkel that is mandated by some agencies, and in cold water I see poor tank material choices such as using AL tanks since they require more lead to sink making the diver really heavy out of the water.
These students may never realize that there is a much simpler and more streamlined way to dive without half that crap. It's actually safer and more enjoyable not to be encumbered by all the stuff that's supposed to be there to make our diving "safer".
Minimalism is a moving target and can mean many things in many different dive scenarios.
However in the most excessive senarios I have witnessed, putting on doubles, stage bottles, can lights, long boses, dry suits, a buddy, and being towed around by a scooter on a 50' shore dive just because the certain "school" of training says that all that gear must be used on every dive for training purposes and to develop "muscle memory" is kind of the jist of what the thread is chipping away at; to the degree that some diving has gotten kind of rediculous but it may also just be a scubaboard thing since I see almost none of this anymore in the actual reality of Northern California diving. Just like I hear all kinds of stuff about sidemount but have never actually seen one in person. So therefore in my world it continues to remain a myth.
Also the casual recreational diver that likes diving but may not like all the gear they have to purchase, don, and also maintain just to do simple 40' reef dives in warm water. The excess gear can be a real turn off to people, I actually know a few in my neck of the woods that gave up scuba for freediving simply because they didn't know there was a better and simpler way to scuba dive.
I think this thread along with other similar threads in the past have done a good job at exposing hungry minds to think outside of the box and realize there are alternatives to the current industry standard.
To those that are gear heads and love to carry more more more, more power to you carry on, the dive shops love you.
To those that would like to find ways to streamline and reduce their gear to become more efficient in the water read on.
caseybird
Contributor
Of course, the interesting idea of streamlining and fairing the tank and regs gets lost in the noise. I think there are some real problems changing the standard configuration, I don't know how you make that stuff work on a dive boat. hey, the idea of flipping the tank over, so it's easier to reach the valves has been banging around for years, but has not been adapted.
The Cousteau arrangement from the sixties, 3 tanks in a fairing sharing a reg and manifold might work, but there would be some serious issues refilling these things in a panga style dive boat. Or a diver would have to haul a lot more gear.
I would love to see some serious work on applying some of these ideas in a real world environment.
The Cousteau arrangement from the sixties, 3 tanks in a fairing sharing a reg and manifold might work, but there would be some serious issues refilling these things in a panga style dive boat. Or a diver would have to haul a lot more gear.
I would love to see some serious work on applying some of these ideas in a real world environment.
caseybird
Contributor
And regarding a monofin, how do you don or doff it on a dive boat, or from shore for that matter?
Can't walk to the dive step with it, that's for sure. Might be able to backroll, but I'll be damned on how you could climb onto the sides suited up in a scuba kit.
Drop off, then don? Might work in some scenarios, but I've been in mildly choppy seas in a dry suit without fins, and I will never do that again willingly.
I also see some challenges using a Christmas tree ladder.
Gotta work out that stuff before we swim with the Dolphins.
Can't walk to the dive step with it, that's for sure. Might be able to backroll, but I'll be damned on how you could climb onto the sides suited up in a scuba kit.
Drop off, then don? Might work in some scenarios, but I've been in mildly choppy seas in a dry suit without fins, and I will never do that again willingly.
I also see some challenges using a Christmas tree ladder.
Gotta work out that stuff before we swim with the Dolphins.
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