Diving Performance - Beyond Drag (article Series And Discussion)

[fjpatrum]

It goes without saying that I am presently a niche diver. I'm using custom built experimental equipment that no one else has, that's designed to do things that no other equipment can do. But, today's niche can become tomorrow's norm.

Hawaii's south point has a confluence of currents and upwellings that attract all manner of pelagics, but it can be very dangerous if a 'normal' diver gets into the wrong places (meaning the places where the stuff you want to see is hanging out). If you drift, you pass right through it and then it's over. Reef hooks are a no-go as the bottom drops off too fast. Depending on where you are, you may have to drop down to 200+ feet to set a hook. The current goes out and away from land and doesn't return, so you'd need a tended boat to do this, but the nearest launch is, I think, Honaunau bay, 45 miles of rough ocean away and the nearest marina another 20 miles beyond that. It would have to be a private charter, as no cattle boats operate there.

As you can see, without the ability to swim effectively in those local conditions, the logistics quickly get out of hand to the point where you just decide to do something else instead. I've freedove there still being wary of the where I am relative to the point and what the currents are doing, but in all my time at south point, I've never seen a scuba diver. The point is a treasure that is presently pretty much off limits to them. Isn't it annoying how all the marine live we want to see tends to hang out where the currents flow and we can't go?

A drift dive can be a lot of fun, but it has a lot of limitations as well, not the least of which is that you need to have a boat and a crew that you are paying to tend to you while you are diving. It's like adding a limo service on top of going out to dinner for a meal. It's not worth doing unless its going to be a spectacular experience, and you probably aren't going to do it more than about once a year. So, maybe I'm not most people, but I do mind, and I'd like good dives on a more frequent basis than that. I'm in it for the dive, not the drive.

Your whole post made my point. You are trying to do things that, let me say it again, most other divers don't want to do. This behavior will only be the norm if you convince other people. So far you simply haven't been very convincing.

 

[REVAN]

You are trying to do things that, let me say it again, most other divers don't want to do.

Distinction: I'm trying to do things that other divers can't do. If they could do it, they would want to.
You yourself said just a few posts back...

I don't need to swim at 3 knots and certainly not 5. Would it be a nice addition? Sure...

i.e. - This is a capability you would like to have! If you could cruise at 3 knots, I have no doubts that there are times you would use that capability and it would be useful to you. People who dive would like to be efficient in the water, even if they don't know anything about my work to try to make more efficient hardware a reality. They may not have a vision for how to achieve it, but efficiency and speed are coveted capabilities sport divers want at their disposal.

It's hard to understand your outward negativity toward something that you have said on several occasions is actually a good thing.

 

[REVAN]

@fjpatrum - Let me ask you this hypothetical question: If you could double or triple your achieved cruising speed (becoming 8 to 27 times more efficient) by using a side-mount rig, would you switch to diving side-mount?

PS - I'd like to hear other people answer to this question as well.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I haven't even considered side-mount diving, as I dive a river where I need to walk quite a ways to the water, then dive in current. To me, in order to make side-mount work, a diver needs to use either a frog kick or a shallow flutter kick, neither of which is efficient. A larger flutter kick will upset the balance of the side-mounted tanks. A dolphin kick cannot work as the side-mounted tanks really are not totally secured to the diver, but can bounce around independent of the diver's motion. The plus of side-mounting is that you can have four cylinders to use. That is helpful when diving deep, and needing to change gases independently (no umbilical). But that is not my type of diving. I like my scuba unit (singular, even with multiple regulators or an octopus) to be secured to my body, so that when I move it moves with me.

SeaRat

 

[REVAN]

@John C. Ratliff - I think you missed the point of the question. The question is not about whether or not you are interested in diving sidemount. This is a hypothetical question. Sidemount will not achieve the hypothetical conditions of the question. The point of this is to see if people would see it advantageous to switch to something that is as different as sidemount diving, IF it could actually make you 8 to 27 times more efficient. I suppose another question, should be at what level of efficiency gains would you consider those gains in-water to outweigh the logistical changes to dealing with the gear outside the water, and/or getting into and out of the water. Maybe 8 isn't worth it to you, but 16 times efficiency is, or 24 times efficiency.

So forget what sidemount actually is in the water. For this hypothetical, assume that it will work like magic in the water, but to use it you will need to treat it logistically different from normal scuba, just like those who switch to sidemount diving must make logistical changes (i.e. - new type of harness, new techniques, maybe even some training if you want some help figuring things out, etc...)

Maybe another way to look at this is, IF sidemount worked like magic in that it made divers 8 to 27 times more efficient in the water on top of its other advantages, who would still be diving with back-mounted tanks along with their added drag? I imagine some would still dive the old system. If any of them are reading this, it would be nice to know their reasoning. Is it purely a financial thing and not wanting to change equipment, or is there more to it?

There are many divers switching to sidemount, even without the hypothetical "magic". How many more would switch if there was some "magic" involved?

 

[fjpatrum]

Distinction: I'm trying to do things that other divers can't do. If they could do it, they would want to.
You yourself said just a few posts back...

i.e. - This is a capability you would like to have! If you could cruise at 3 knots, I have no doubts that there are times you would use that capability and it would be useful to you. People who dive would like to be efficient in the water, even if they don't know anything about my work to try to make more efficient hardware a reality. They may not have a vision for how to achieve it, but efficiency and speed are coveted capabilities sport divers want at their disposal.

It's hard to understand your outward negativity toward something that you have said on several occasions is actually a good thing.

Again, you're conflating very different types of diving to come at your position. I don't know what a "sport diver" is, but I suspect most of us don't fall into that category. Maybe spearos? They'd certainly want more speed and efficiency.

As for me, it's not something I "would like to have". You edited my posts to change the meaning to fit what you want me to say. My post about being able to swim at 3 to 5 knots wasn't saying I want to do it, it was distinguishing between what you call a "requirement" and what thousands of dives every year prove otherwise. Would I say no to such efficiency gains if they were readily available and cheap? No but I wouldn't go out of my way to be able to do it and, on the dives I do, I'd absolutely never actually need it. I certainly wouldn't pay more for it than the rest of my kit combined. And I guarantee you that just because I can do something has zero bearing on whether or not I want to do it. I'm baffled that you think it does.

I have no negativity toward the concept; I've said that time and time again. I find the idea interesting and I love seeing things tinkered with, tweaked, and taken in different directions. That's the only actual interest I have in it one way or the other. I'm an engineer through and through and I geek out about people using their noodle to create new things. It doesn't matter to me whether I like that thing or not, I think it's a cool thing to witness.

What I do have is an opinion that you need to change your approach if you want to convince people the thing you see as "necessary" actually is. Right now there are some people who agree with you. It's not a enough to make a change, though.

I think I'll bow out, now. It's clear you don't see (or are ignoring) my point and you're not going to convince me that what you're doing is going to have any impact on my diving at all unless you change your position on further research/testing. I wish you luck with your next project and sincerely hope someone finds this one interesting enough to re-spark your interest in it.

 

[fjpatrum]

Sorry, @REVAN I didn't see your post about the sidemount. I honestly have no idea because I've never even seen a sidemount rig in person but I suspect the answer is no. I'm not a full-time diver. I've got around 50 dives in 6 years or so. For me it simply isn't cost effective to switch out the gear I have for something new. Even if I were diving daily, I probably wouldn't do it unless there were a compelling reason other than efficiency. As I've said, I don't have a problem with the efficiency I have right now. My dives are reasonable lengths (for me) I see the things I want to see, and I enjoy my time doing many other things as well.

 

[REVAN]

@fjpatrum - Obviously, I would like to have been able to elicit a more enthusiastic response from you, but I actually do understand where you are coming from. I generally don't give up easily, and keep trying to persuade. I'm an engineer and not a people person or salesman, so admittedly, I'm not very good at it.

However, know that your participation is useful. I didn't expect to have everyone on my side. Frankly, I'm actually surprised that there was not more resistance than their was. From previous experiences, I was kind of expecting to get mauled, but that did not happen. This is encouraging. Just the same, I don't see enough enthusiasm here to make pursuing this a high priority endeavour either.

I have my kit that appears to be achieving about an 8x performance increase over the average diver. It's not what I ultimately want, but it's good enough for now, and presently I don't have mature ideas for how to get to the 27x efficiency threshold that I think would be transformational to how divers operate.

I encourage you to think about how a 3 knot cruise could change the way you dive. When you are out diving, think about the sites that could be reached that are presently off limits to you. Think about the dives that could be had without dropping $120 or more on a boat ride. Think about how easy it would be to deal with that current if you were 3 times faster for the same effort. See if it doesn't start looking to have significant advantages when that 3 knot threshold is surpassed. I think it is a worthy design goal.

I plan to use my 8x kit for a few years and learn from it before moving on, and in the meantime I have an airplane to make that will keep me busy for quite a while. Someday, I do hope to make a 27x system. Eventually, I expect the ideas to mature into designs that can be prototyped and tested. Perhaps by then, your level of enthusiasm will have increased. It's probably more likely that you will have quit diving altogether, but I can always hope.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I've been out of the loop for a while, I just got my hip replaced so I've not been active.

But reading all this I have a few ideas to share since decreased drag and increased effifiency has always been a goal of mine.

Revan: In the end I think you are wasting a lot of energy and time on a group here on scubaboard that has already decided and figured out the style and design of gear they use. After a lot of study and reading now for years and seeing the patterns, I've come to a pretty good conclusion of what the composition is of scubaboard. Most are just regular divers using regular gear, they frequent the travel forums mostly and are basically happy with what they use and see no reason the change. A huge cross section of scubaboard are photogs and so going fast isn't a priority. Then there are ones that are interested in helicopter turns and backing up. A lot of this is DIR based from the root since I never heard of any of this prior to DIR.
There are a lot of techs, a few rebreather divers, a pretty good cadre of GUE, and various other DIR practitioner types, whether they use the system in whole or in part. And yes finally a growing population of sidemounters.
But as far as anything remotely close to no BC diving and speed the only group close would be vintage, but they into something entirely different. Everything you're talking about and advocating is cutting edge modern and so they won't be interested since they are into proper period gear and vintage diving reenactments. The one guy that would be a strong proponent of such a system would be Dan Volker but as you remember he got permanently banned from scuba board for being a POV warrior.
I'll bet there aren't 5 people total that would are seriously interested in increasing speed to the level you describe on this board.
You have realize this is the internet and most here have already made their minds up and are pretty set in their ways. By the time people get interested enough in an activity to actually subscribe to internet sites means they are already pretty dedicated to a cause or "school".

As far as market I don't know what to tell you. I ran across the same problems with my product even though it was not nearly as involved as what you're doing. It's almost like that style of diving would need it's own section or website with the right people hitting it. They're out there I know, it's just finding them. They certainly aren't here that's for sure.
The group I'm envisioning would the young people, in shape type that like new cutting edge stuff and like the thrill of cutting through water fast. This could be done just as an end goal in in itself like in Lake Tahoe for instance where there aren't a lot of small critters to look at and there are some great wide vistas. The vis in Tahoe is 80-90 feet and a lot of rock structure. Going slow gets really boring, but soaring and gliding along some of those granite faces would be fanstastic! See, to me this would be worth the cost of a specific product just to be able to experience this, similar to a kite boarding or some other thrill specific product.
The people here don't see it. All they want to do is either just use their regular dive shop gear, or hang a bunch of bottles everywhere on their BP/W or sidemount, then frog kick around and then back up and do heli turns.

Then with the freedivers, a lot of them are purists and don't believe in scuba. They think that if someone has to use scuba to hunt then they are weenies and shouldn't be diving. So in their view optimized scuba is kind of pointless.

I think some really good videos with side by side comparisons of just how much more efficient your system is over conventional gear would be a great starting point. Maybe something like a scuba drag race filmed from the side to give people a visual of just how much faster a scuba diver is able to be? Seeing people in a pool alone doesn't give any scope.
I think great videos will be the key, then let them come to you.

One more point. You guys with your scooters doing all your acrobatics in the water column in and out of the kelp forest, filling the water with your annoying "wiirring" noise from the motor, what do you call that if it's nothing but just pure entertainment?

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Well, I have two engineers that I'm addressing. That is interesting to me, as I have developed these concepts without being an engineer (though my son is one ).

I think this conversation is somewhat akin to the difference between hiking and bicycling. Hikers like to linger, to look at small things, to see things that bicyclists don't see because they are going too fast. But I do both, hiking and bicycling. I like both modes of transportation, and each has its place. I have even had times when I ride my bicycle to a location, get off and hike for a while.

Relating that to diving, and getting back on topic, years ago I decided to take my Aqueon apart. I liked the use of the driving planes, but did not like how it was set up. Since then I have made an actual unit, again out of the Aqueon's forward blades. I started out calling this a "forward unit," and mounting it simply on a compass board with handles. I tested it first on February 2, 1976. In my dive log, enclosed, I stated that:

1. Should conduct experiment in a large pool.
2. Must build a forward unit.
3. Had to abort dive due to leaks in my mitts (left thumb froze).*
4. Hand grip on the forward unit crapmed fingers (in wet suit gloves) badly--need hand grips.
*open water dive, probably in the Sandy River near Portland (where I had dived the day before and noted: "...Weather/Water conditions: Excellent--Purpose of the dive was to search the river for the body of a 4 yr old boy. Observations: Checked out the stream very well--no body. The boy probabyl ran away and is not in the river, or if he is he has been washed to the Columbia. We also made a helicopter search of the area." I was a member of the Pararescue Section of the 304th Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Squadron at the time.

So I cut a pice of copper tubing the same size as the piece in the Aqueon that held the blades apart, and used the metal rod that was originally used on the blades, and put them together. I then took an old aluminum bicycle handle I had laying around, cut it apart, and put handles on each of the stabilizing fin on each side, and started swimming with it. I use the dolphin kick almost exclusively with this, and the feeling is that of flying.

I have now been using this "Hammerhead Unit," and what I now call Sea-Turtle Dolphin Swimming to swim when I dive. I have used this with the monofin, and with my own scoop fins. It can be used with any type of fins the diver already has. I'll let you read over the disclosure of invention that I have enclosed so that you can get a better idea of what my concept for fast underwater swimming is all about. But a warning--this is not the last, or fastest, of the concepts I have in mind.

SeaRat